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Why don’t more people live close to friends?

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Re: Why don’t more people live close to friends?

#221

Post by vkou »

hibikir wrote: post #163
zamnos wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit of an unconventional POV, but I don't consider large areas of suburban sprawl to be cities but just really big towns. This covers Houston, swaths of Atlanta, lots of Southern California. There are lots of people living there compared to rural areas, to be sure, but without the density to support usable public transportation (once-an-hour buses don't count), it's really not a city at all. It's endless su…

If anything, you are being too nice to US suburbs: It's perfectly possible to have towns that are much denser than any US suburb. My Spanish home town has about 100K inhabitants: You'd not call that a city anywhere in the US. And yet, It's basically a circle with a one mile radius: Yes, just one mile. In that situation, one can walk everywhere, and public transportation is limited to the elderly, people carrying heav…

> When your average building is 6 stories tall, and your typical street is 30 feet wide building to building, a quarter mile circle holds a lot of families!

Someone walking through a six-story downtown is, by such a measurement, traveling faster than a car traveling at ~90 mph through suburbia.

(Of course, a car can't travel that quickly through suburbia.)

Re: Why don’t more people live close to friends?

#222

Post by reyqn »

pharmakom wrote: post #186

Cars. Everything is designed around cars. Cars require lots of space, particularly at the destination (parking). So everything is built spread out (sprawl). Now you can choose between living in a tiny apartment or something bigger, but far away from everything. When you are younger, enough of your friends might choose the apartment and you can live near friends. This is for many what makes the college experience spec…

I think cars was the single most stupid "evolution" for humanity. And when maybe we had an out (prioritizing public transports, because fossil fuel is running out), then what... ELECTRIC CARS FOR EVERYONE. Cars take up so much money and space and energy... And the time that you should gain thanks to your car is just lost in transportation time, because now you can (and have to) live farther from work / friends / family / activities.

Re: Why don’t more people live close to friends?

#223

Post by Moldoteck »

timwaagh wrote: post #210
naremu wrote: post #25

I've been wondering how related these feelings of distance and isolation in the middle of society are to how the area is designed. I had always known for a long time the "why" I didn't want to go out on weekends and such, but it wasn't until I watched some of those videos from "Not Just Bikes" that it really, really struck me. I literally dread finding parking more than I enjoy finding friends. And suburban (and fran…

Not just bikes makes it feel like the solution to everything is to be like the Netherlands. In that sense it's a fraud. To some extent yes you should be more like us and offload some of that traffic onto a bike path. To the extent that works and is efficient. But... I have lived here all my life. It is not a solution to anything else. It turns out, bikes do not talk to each other very much either.

But after arriving at destination, people can talk, no? You also dont get bothered with parking and everything is much closer, so less time in traffic, so much less thinking about how to get to destination and more about how nice it will be spending time with friends. But imo trains are better, even less thinking about commute. Living in Zurich for a bit was eye-opening. I took a breakfast with my friends in train, like in restaurant, when we went to mountains. And trains were fast and frequent, like one in 15-30min towards our destination

Re: Why don’t more people live close to friends?

#224

Post by mantas »

trinovantes wrote: post #119
naremu wrote: post #25

I've been wondering how related these feelings of distance and isolation in the middle of society are to how the area is designed. I had always known for a long time the "why" I didn't want to go out on weekends and such, but it wasn't until I watched some of those videos from "Not Just Bikes" that it really, really struck me. I literally dread finding parking more than I enjoy finding friends. And suburban (and fran…

My personal theory is that suburban sprawl killed the "third place" in modern society. If you have to drive to a place to socialize (which probably involve drinking), then you're probably not going. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

I don't think so. I'm not in US, but here „third place“ was not a thing regardless of density. In fact, now climbing out of ex-soviet past (read poverty and totalitarian regime preventing the third place as well as urban sprawl), we got both urban sprawl and growth of the „third place“. Well, little growth from next-to-none. Which is hitting a low ceiling of rather intraverted culture that is caught up in TV and interwebs. Why go to bars if everybody is sitting in tight groups-of-friends and scrolling together...

Ironically, somewhat-third-place, seems to be most active in suburbs and rural areas. Where neighbours need to work together to solve various community issues. And that turns into partying together as well. It's common to have a community house where everybody can use the space for organising whatever, from playing table games to art classes to random lectures to movie nights. While densier cities seem to be less socializing outside of family&friends circles.

Re: Why don’t more people live close to friends?

#225

Post by ghaff »

jader201 wrote: post #171
maxerickson wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

rare suburbanite HNer I bet that's pretty wrong.

I don’t think so. I’ve seen countless threads and front page articles about more bike-friendly, anti-car city development, as well as how suburban and rural cities requiring cars and more driving is definitely not a good thing. It’s very hard to find anyone coming to defense of the allure of smaller, more open developments with actual land between your neighbors. If you want to find rural or suburban folks, HN is not…

Because so many of urbanite anti-car commenters are so strident that there’s very little point in engaging with them. (HN probably is younger which tends to correlate with more urban these days but it’s generally not worth trying to have certain discussions that will change no one’s mind.)

As a peer commented if you live in Silicon Valley, among other places, you live in the suburbs even if you can maybe walk to a few places.

Re: Why don’t more people live close to friends?

#226

Post by atoav »

vkou wrote: post #221
hibikir wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything, you are being too nice to US suburbs: It's perfectly possible to have towns that are much denser than any US suburb. My Spanish home town has about 100K inhabitants: You'd not call that a city anywhere in the US. And yet, It's basically a circle with a one mile radius: Yes, just one mile. In that situation, one can walk everywhere, and public transportation is limited to the elderly, people carrying heav…

> When your average building is 6 stories tall, and your typical street is 30 feet wide building to building, a quarter mile circle holds a lot of families! Someone walking through a six-story downtown is, by such a measurement, traveling faster than a car traveling at ~90 mph through suburbia. (Of course, a car can't travel that quickly through suburbia.)

How much use you can pull out of that depends on how it is zoned. In European cities it is not uncommon to have grocery stores, pubs, cafes, bakeries and such within walking distance of your home. My next grocery store is 2 minutes by foot. The next 24/7 store where I can get beer 5 minutes, the next park 8 minutes.

In the worst flat in these terms I ever had in a city over here was 10 minutes walk to the next grocery shop and this was a dirt cheap flat on a loud main road.

Even parts of the town where you have mostly residential housing will have the occasional small shop, grocery store, gas station or similar. If I understood zoning in the US correctly this kind of mixing is at times even forbidden?

Re: Why don’t more people live close to friends?

#227

Post by midoridensha »

ehnto wrote: post #145
rainytuesday wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan doesn't make sense though, they have an amazing urban environment, yet still seem to have problems with social isolation.

I think work expectations and schooling play a bigger role in that than the city planning, but it may also be suffering from it's own success in some ways. An abundance of choice can sometimes make commitment difficult, dating apps are one example. It's easy to stay non-commited to a social regulationship when it feels like they are a dime a dozen. I also get the impression that a lot is expected of individuals in th…

This is exactly it. People are very busy with work, and work too much, and then there's so much choice socially, so they end up making plans for their free time several weeks in advance.

Re: Why don’t more people live close to friends?

#228

Post by pantalaimon »

throwaway22032 wrote: post #181
mikrotikker wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd far rather go for a long drive in a comfortable car with scenic views than go to a bar. My closest (in both meanings of the word) friend is three hours away through a scenic mountain pass and when we go there its for an entire weekend. This gives time to help with things like building a shed or swapping an engine in a car.

Heh. I live in a city and more and more I feel this. The whole idea behind urbanism seems to be - give up the outdoors, give up hobbies that require tools and space. Go to the bar. Or a "makerspace" where you can have controlled use of someone else's tools. Rent this, rent that, take an uber here and there. It's just so commercialised.

I don’t see how having to buy all the tools yourself is any less commercial. In a hackspace you often get to access tools that you wouldn’t want to afford yourself.

Re: Why don’t more people live close to friends?

#229

Post by mantas »

Moldoteck wrote: post #223
timwaagh wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just bikes makes it feel like the solution to everything is to be like the Netherlands. In that sense it's a fraud. To some extent yes you should be more like us and offload some of that traffic onto a bike path. To the extent that works and is efficient. But... I have lived here all my life. It is not a solution to anything else. It turns out, bikes do not talk to each other very much either.

But after arriving at destination, people can talk, no? You also dont get bothered with parking and everything is much closer, so less time in traffic, so much less thinking about how to get to destination and more about how nice it will be spending time with friends. But imo trains are better, even less thinking about commute. Living in Zurich for a bit was eye-opening. I took a breakfast with my friends in train, l…

You still need people to talk and time slot to meet. Same scheduling issues.

I used to live in downtown of my 600k city. Moved back to outskirts of the same city. Driving is the smallest issue to meet.

Reading those discussions from afar, it feels like Americans are using urban sprawl as a scapegoat. While it's a problem everywhere else too. Even if you take away urban sprawl and driving, the problem will be there.

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