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'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

joannejacobs.com

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Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#471

Post by phonon »

v0idzer0 wrote: post #446
brianwawok wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is some fair arguments to make that mixing kids of different backgrounds together improves outcomes, if you take 1 kid from a poor background and surround that kid with a culture of success, there is a very large chance the kid will pick up on that culture of success and start doing better. My understanding is research shows this "evens" outcomes. The worst students do better (Teacher has more time to pay att…

People generally do what is expected of them. If you’re dropped into a class with higher expectations, you perform better. Lower expectations and you perform worse. We are all optimized to do what’s required of us and conserve excess energy.

Or you find the difficulty is too high, and you drop out.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#472

Post by GoblinSlayer »

Psyladine wrote: post #424
shrimp_emoji wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And apparently everyone thought the book was satirical and embraced the word as a positive concept. :p (But then, of course, you realize that you've merely shifted the game of haves and have-nots to other kinds of "have" and feel the hubristic urge to socially engineer your way to equal outcomes.)

People bought into the seductive lie of fairness is what happened, even when the sentiment was the opposite. Compare "blood is thicker than water", which was rooted in the opposite conclusion, that the blood of the covenant is thicker than water of the womb, i.e. your relationships and social bonds outcompete genetic ties. The failing of meritocracy is that it is tautological; those who succeed did so because they mu…

I think the problem is created by strong connotations of the word "loser", otherwise being poor would be no worse than inability to draw.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#473

Post by pandaman »

GoblinSlayer wrote: post #469
pandaman wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry, I don't understand your point then. How is your case relevant to children of college professors or even mere PhDs? You apparently didn't have the same educational opportunities as them by your own account.

I have better education than children of millionaire professors. My point is that you don't need something extreme to know school math.

>>My point is that you don't need something extreme to know school math.

That is obvious, the discussion is about the education opportunities though, not mastering school math, which is, honestly, a joke.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#475

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

echelon wrote: post #213
adamredwoods wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have two friends whose kids are in two different Seattle middle schools, and the anecdotes we hear are not going well. One middle school was considering getting rid of advanced courses entirely. We're in East Renton, which usually follows Seattle, but they have kept honor courses. In fact, honor courses are encouraged to take, open to everyone, and from what I understand, no one is rejected (possibly only for the…

You're not going to improve the lives of impoverished children by lowering the bar. It's absurd. The best solution I can think of is to pay children to succeed in academics or extracurriculars (STEM, clubs, sports, arts, etc.) A student wouldn't have to be gifted in math, just apply themselves to some interest that drives them. Give them a score-based percentage of $200/mo for hitting certain criteria each month. Pla…

>>> You're not going to improve the lives of impoverished children by lowering the bar. It's absurd.

I definitely agree with this

>>> Give them a score-based percentage of $200/mo for hitting certain criteria each month.

I would love if this would work, but unfortunately there is no easy answer. In fact, MacArthur Genius Award Winner and John Bates Clark medalist Roland Fryer managed to somehow persuade entire school districts to test your very assertion at scale, and the results were not straightforward as you seem to believe [1]

Incentives dont quite work like you expect them ...

[1] https://www.econtalk.org/roland-fryer-on-educational-reform/

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#476

Post by com2kid »

upsidesinclude wrote: post #436
brianwawok wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is some fair arguments to make that mixing kids of different backgrounds together improves outcomes, if you take 1 kid from a poor background and surround that kid with a culture of success, there is a very large chance the kid will pick up on that culture of success and start doing better. My understanding is research shows this "evens" outcomes. The worst students do better (Teacher has more time to pay att…

>culture of success There is the crux. Bad cultures exist and we dont need to celebrate them. Bad culture drags everyone down and makes society worse.

> Bad cultures exist and we dont need to celebrate them. Bad culture drags everyone down and makes society worse.

We need to ask why those bad cultures exist and take steps to remediate the underlying problems.

In Seattle, one of the richest cities in one of the richest countries in all of human history, some of the public schools still have leaded drinking pipes that "may be safe" for kids to drink from.

For the vast majority of working adults in America, a job means unreliable shifts, being treated with outright cruelty by management, and pay that isn't enough to cover health insurance premiums.

Given that, why is anyone surprised that kids don't "apply themselves"? What are their parents going to say? "Work hard and you to can be in debt and barely afford to pay rent!"

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#477

Post by voldacar »

LeanderK wrote: post #360
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What else could possible result? There are people who don't understand sociology and are only vaguely aware of pathological cultural factors (or possibly, though they are aware of them, wish to deny their existence) and demand that these problems be solved with bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is only able to crudely affect these, and only in the most totalitarian of regimes. Mao or Stalin might have been able to rid their c…

nearly every other developed country managed to fund their schools system adequately, to provide a uniform system of education without heavy reliance on private schools. While you can't really guarantee equal opportunities for every kid due extracurricular support, at least the possible schools and classes are open to everyone independent of income. So one should strive to eliminate private schools as much as possibl…

Look at a graph of public school spending per student. Now look at a graph of standardized test scores. Contemplate this

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#478

Post by kridsdale1 »

adrr wrote: post #288
com2kid wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing up in Seattle in the 90s, the school district was obviously racist and classist. Advanced programs were in the richer (whiter) neighborhoods and poor kids got to go to schools with police wagons out front. The district charter use to have a line in it saying they had to offer each kid the best education possible. My mother used that line to force the school district to send a taxi to every day to take me up t…

Wasn't Garfield the school that had the advanced classes and the smartest kids in the district that were bused in? Its in central district of Seattle which has the highest population of minorities of any other district.

I live close to it, but don’t yet have school age kids and haven’t researched its reputation. This is good to hear.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#479

Post by chadcmulligan »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #401
chadcmulligan wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not at all, take 10% of the military budget, up the tax right for the high earners and make a better world. Imagine a place where no one had to be scared of living on the street, could get decent food, has access to free education and health care. What a wonderful world. It's totally within our capabilities and no one need suffer. Now I'm not saying it will be a great life but a basic life, it's been proved over…

> What a wonderful world. It's totally within our capabilities and no one need suffer. I get really scared when I hear anyone promise utopia. Literally every large-scale society that did turned into a hellscape after a while, and the idea itself never worked. There was always someone who didn't buy into the idea, and they were blamed for why it didn't work. "If only those people were gone, then this would work and we…

Interesting, China has managed to lift a large proportion of its citizens in a very short time. I wasn't suggesting a Utopia, merely raising the bar so the minimum level is better than it is now, surely that should be the goal of every advanced country. The current levels of poverty are negatively influencing the next generation.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#480

Post by chadcmulligan »

dh2022 wrote: post #453
chadcmulligan wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not at all, take 10% of the military budget, up the tax right for the high earners and make a better world. Imagine a place where no one had to be scared of living on the street, could get decent food, has access to free education and health care. What a wonderful world. It's totally within our capabilities and no one need suffer. Now I'm not saying it will be a great life but a basic life, it's been proved over…

" Imagine a place where no one had to be scared of living on the street, could get decent food, has access to free education and health care. What a wonderful world. " This wonderful world already exists in the US. Poor people have access to Medicaid / Emergency Rooms. The debate about food insecurity is whether or not poor people can afford fresh vegetables (because living on rice, cheap meats and canned peas/beans…

> if you are living on the street when you can get a job as a limo driver for $30 / hour just by walking in then maybe is your fault???

Wow, this is a joke isn't it?

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