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Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

economist.com

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Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#391

Post by antonvs »

PostOnce wrote: post #268
tambourine_man wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I will export millions of dollars in products that I produced here, or I will die trying Why? Really. Maybe I’m in a midlife crises but I care about money less and less. I used to get a a lot of satisfaction from the simple fact of seeing the number on my bank account increase. Not so much in the past decade. My computer, phone, speaker, camera and other tech toys are amazing and not that expensive. Great food and…

Let me answer you honestly and in depth: Why? Why not? If I am alive, I may as well make an effort, since I have a finite time to do so. It's fun. It's a challenge. I know a couple of men in their 50s, one is relatively wealthy (some tens of millions of dollars), and I have often seen him on top of a machine with a wrench in his hand at 6am. Sometimes it's 3am. He starts a new company every year or two and adds it to…

> We (humans) just achieved fusion

There’s no sense in which that statement is true.

We’ve been doing fusion for 80 years. What was recently achieved was a small increase in efficiency of fusion. We’re really not all that much closer to being able to use it to generate useful power than the first fusion reactor 65 years ago. We’re still not even close to being able to produce more energy than we used to drive the reactor, and there’s a high probability that this won’t change in another 65 years.

> and that machine cost billions. It wasn't a toy. Money is the power to build the future.

Not if it’s wasted on impractical ideas like commercial fusion power, or colonizing Mars. Money without intelligence behind it wastes resources and destroys the planet.

> you can still win

The true cost of this alleged “winning” isn’t measured in money.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#392

Post by antonvs »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #365
pasabagi wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rich people become rich by paying other people less than the value of their labour. Sometimes, that's to the net benefit of the community, since the value of the labour involved is increased by a superior process. Often, that is to the net detriment of the community: for example, a landlord. The reality is, the impact of a wealthy person is almost always small, and usually negative-on-net. That's why, in the thousand…

> Rich people become rich by paying other people less than the value of their labour This is actually completely wrong. Believe it or not, many of the richest people get rich because they pay their employees more than they think they are worth.

Please provide just one example.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#393

Post by antonvs »

j7ake wrote: post #355
pasabagi wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rich people become rich by paying other people less than the value of their labour. Sometimes, that's to the net benefit of the community, since the value of the labour involved is increased by a superior process. Often, that is to the net detriment of the community: for example, a landlord. The reality is, the impact of a wealthy person is almost always small, and usually negative-on-net. That's why, in the thousand…

Who did JK Rowling underpay to get to the top ? People can make money through success in positive sum games, which wouldn’t require exploiting other people.

There are entire industries behind people like Rowling - book publishing, movie production, etc., subject to all the same exploitation of surplus value.

It’s similar to how we benefit from cheap manufacturing labor in other countries, performed by people we don’t know. Who did we underpay to get our luxurious lifestyles? The fact that we can’t name them is part of the sleight of hand that allows us to ignore the exploitation, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#394

Post by throwawaymaths »

pasabagi wrote: post #376
throwawaymaths wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rich people become rich by paying other people less than the value of their labour This is actually completely wrong. Believe it or not, many of the richest people get rich because they pay their employees more than they think they are worth.

Explain to me why you would hire somebody if they lose you money.

Value is subjective, you can't point to x worker and calculate exactly how much "value they create" to the company, because many things a company does are not possible or nearly impossible by individuals. If you calculated how much value each employee brings in by subtracting what the company would have made in their absence, that would often result in being more than the company makes for most high skilled jobs.

That's why I said worth not value. You can define what a person thinks they are worth by asking them.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#395

Post by neffy »

randomdata wrote: post #291
neffy wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to think that, but unfortunately foreign born Americans (immigrants) actually have significantly longer life expectancies than American born do. Part of the reason for that is the much higher death rate in infants in the US, but it is still a very hard thing to explain away. I will also say as somebody who has lived in the US, US food is high calorie, but it is not better on any dimension, than what I…

Isn't simply explained by the fact that immigration processes generally select for the fittest individuals? If you are not operating well it is going to be difficult to find the capacity to start the immigration process, and if you do make it that far you are likely to find out that the destination country doesn't want you. The same kind of phenomenon is seen in college graduates who love longer than non-graduates. T…

Not really. We also have to put this in the context of US life expectancy being significantly lower than comparable European countries. Britain for example has also had a very high immigration rate for a couple of centuries now, but no comparable difference is seen there.

In the US money (and as proxy college education) is a gateway to a lot of things that influence health outcome, notably access to health treatment. So Occam's razor would suggest that is the simplest explanation - Europe has national health programs that provide access to good quality medical treatment for all levels of society. The US simply doesn't. See the infant mortality statistics.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#396

Post by schuke »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #323
quicklime wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do agree with many of your points here, but just to nitpick... > (fact) Americans are ambitious to a fault...9 to 5 in the suburbs is not an endgame for me. So you state this as a fact about Americans in general, but then use yourself as the only proof. Isn’t 9 to 5 in the suburbs basically the end goal that most Americans dream of? I definitely think that Americans are more entrepreneurial than most, but other cul…

LOL, Americans are definitely NOT ambitious to a fault. The vast majority believe that a 9 to 5 is a great accomplishment worthy of applause. Have a job that affords you a roof over your head? Hero. Have a job where you need public assistance because your employer won't pay you enough to make ends meet? Villain. American rhetoric is ambitious. Americans in practice are just as lazy as everybody else. Americans will p…

I think here ambition needs to be distinguished from hard-work. For example many Chinese are hardworking but not ambitious, they work very hard for many years to become a civil servant. On the other hand, many in the US believe they can achieve anything. Plus it could be those exceptionally ambitious achieve exceptionally great results, much like the top few companies pull the entire S&P 500 upwards.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#397

Post by pigsty »

csomar wrote: post #267
pigsty wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan doesn’t have a nearby superpower that makes sabotaging your entire economy a yearly campaign point in order to prove your country sucks. Cuba’s had that for well over half a century.

Cuba is in a unique position to be a ridiculously wealthy country. They can flaunt US long-arm jurisdiction (ie: FATCA) and act as a safe heaven for US/EU monies. The embargo on Cuba is pretty much self-imposed by the their current regime.

Yeah, being a criminal safe haven right next to a country that has no problem supporting terrorists and dropping bombs on civilian targets is a wonderful idea. Can’t imagine why they never tried it.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#398

Post by chrisco255 »

janalsncm wrote: post #372
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL, Americans are definitely NOT ambitious to a fault. The vast majority believe that a 9 to 5 is a great accomplishment worthy of applause. Have a job that affords you a roof over your head? Hero. Have a job where you need public assistance because your employer won't pay you enough to make ends meet? Villain. American rhetoric is ambitious. Americans in practice are just as lazy as everybody else. Americans will p…

It’s not an accident the French are able to protest for workers’ rights while Americans mostly can’t. And it’s not because of differences between French and American psychology either. No, the reason is simple: unions. Most Americans aren’t in one, which makes collective organization nearly impossible. Businesses know this, and politicians know this, which is why some of them have made it a point to demonize and defa…

If it's true that unions are so valuable, why is it that in most industries in the U.S. workers are far better compensated? Take tech as one example of a non-unionized industry that has still secured for itself work-from-home, sometimes unlimited PTO, extensive maternity and paternity leave, sometimes five to six plus figures in bonus and stock compensation, etc plus pre-WFH the dankest office accomodations which regularly include catered meals, on site yoga instructors, massages, free drinks and more. Do any unionized French companies get such perks?

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#399

Post by refurb »

arethuza wrote: post #386
refurb wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely not my experience working overseas in a few countries. There are certainly lazy Americans, but I’ve worked in multi-national offices where youd get fired in the US for the type of slacking i saw.

The US doesn't have particularly high GDP per hour worked: https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm Slightly above Sweden and slightly below Denmark and quite a bit less than Ireland.

GDP is a complex measure as it depends on what that hour of work produces. And GDP also includes production that required no labor at all (i.e. see Ireland's incredibly high GDP per capita due to multi-nationals funneling sales through the country).

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#400

Post by refurb »

epolanski wrote: post #362
refurb wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely not my experience working overseas in a few countries. There are certainly lazy Americans, but I’ve worked in multi-national offices where youd get fired in the US for the type of slacking i saw.

That's simply because firing people is easier in the US thus, maybe, people slack off less on average.

My personal impression (I'll admit in limited in scope) is that expectations are generally higher in the US. Not expectations around hours put in, but rather how quickly work gets done, quality of the work, etc.

And that's not just management expectations of employees, but also employees expectations of other employees.

If my coworkers in the US pulled what I saw in some parts of Asia, they'd stick out like sore thumb and be generally despised by other employees for screwing them over.

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