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Surviving Burnout (2015)

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Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#121

Post by mizzao »

buggy6257 wrote: post #2

A harrowing tale and I'm thankful the author made it through alright, but I have to fundamentally disagree with one possible takeaway from this: Her solution to burnout was to _start her own business_?? I'm glad this worked out for her in the end, but holy shit this would be the literal last possible thing I (or I hope many others) would consider as a solution to burnout. That's a _fast track_ to burnout.

Yep. Burnt out (at least) twice while building my own startup. This raised some alarm bells for me too.

But, maybe the author just needed a change of scene...

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#122

Post by solatic »

lelanthran wrote: post #101
danparsonson wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More companies should employ such coaches and schedule regular sessions for all their employees That honestly sounds dreadful to me, exactly the kind of management-driven nonsense that would make me more likely to quit. If you want your employees pumped up about work, focus on treating them well not hiring cheerleaders.

> If you want your employees pumped up about work, focus on treating them well not hiring cheerleaders. How is the company supposed to know what "treating you well" means if they don't have people who try to figure out what that phrase means to each individual? Different strokes for different folks, and all that. I'm not picking on you personally, but throughout this entire thread the sentiments I quoted above have b…

Yep, plus, "treating people well" is something that's truly difficult to scale. Think of any nationally size company that interacts with the public - hotel chains, airlines, etc. Everything is process layered on top of process layered on top of process, which helps define minimum standards, but no process can truly standardize how to go "above and beyond" because that's such an individual and in-the-moment thing.

Instructing dozens, hundreds, thousands of managers to treat their employees well wouldn't achieve anything. It's similar to how legal codes can't just prescribe "being a good person is legal, being a bad person is illegal". There's so much room for interpretation that it would be effectively meaningless.

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#123

Post by bheadmaster »

Aeolun wrote: post #108
bheadmaster wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the person you asked, but I have had experience with both depression and burnout. Depression, in my case, makes things meaningless in a "calmer" way - I can think about any activity, but it just feels meaningless, as if somebody was asking me to dig a hole then bury it back up. Like, why? What is the point? Burnout, on the other hand, had an avoidant element to it - when thinking about work, I start feeling helpl…

> The mind is just avoiding making any connections relevant to the work. This part is insane. But it doesn’t only happen when burned out. It happens to me when I get asked to do something that I do not believe in. I say yes, because you know, my boss is asking me to do it. But when I actually start on it my brain just completely shuts down. Like, is it trying to prevent me from seeming efficient at things I absolutel…

I assume yes. I've had similar problems, but over time I've learned not to separate solutions into "good" and "bad", but place them on a spectrum of "goodness" from my perspective. That way, it's easier to accept that somebody just wants a not-so-good solution and do it.

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#124

Post by BobbyTables2 »

ElFitz wrote: post #96
delusional wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be asking too much on a public forum, but would you be able to describe what differentiates these two for you? Feel free to decline if it's too personal or you just don't feel like it.

In short, depression, to me, was total and absolute hopelessness. Burn out, on the other hand, brought me dread, anxiety, exhaustion, and the feeling of being trapped in a pointless but never-ending cycle. If I were to dive into more details, depression gave me a rock-solid certainty that I could never be happy, or meaningfully enjoy life in any meaningful way. There might have been some joyous and light-hearted mome…

How did you get yourself out of these?

I find I just don’t have ambitions for anything anymore. I simply exist without any hope/expectation of joy/excitement.

I used to be more energetic and fairly optimistic. I’m not even stressed and have overcome a few minor health issues that used to bother me.

Yet at this point, I can’t help but feel the best years have passed and now it just a slow decline to the end. (But no thoughts of suicide/self-harm).

I know this probably isn’t entire true but can’t get away from the feeling.

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#125

Post by digitalsushi »

hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #81
bruce511 wrote: post #8

>> caring about the results of our actions but having no meaningful control over those outcomes This really dies sum it up in a useful generic way. Ultimately the balance of this sentence will differ from context to context, but the equation ultimately has to balance. Put another way, if you care a lot, but have no agency, then ultimately you will be frustrated. If you care a lot, but have no resources, then again, y…

The good old fashioned Job Resources / Job Demands 2x2 strikes again. - Low resources * low demands = low motivation + average stress. You don't really give a shit about the job, but it's also not taking a lot out of you either. - High resources * low demands = high motivation + low stress. The dream! - High resources * high demands = high motivation + average stress. You've got a lot on your plate - but you also fee…

Low resource, low demand = working the grill at a sleepy diner

High resource, low demands = working in a test kitchen

High resource, high demand = working Michelin star restaurant

Low resource, high demand = working at fast food

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#126

Post by npc789 »

dilyevsky wrote: post #15
solatic wrote: post #11

> Structural problems require structural solutions. Healthy organizations, healthy people. It's not the author's conclusion, but this is basically my fantasy ever since watching Billions with Wendy Rhoades's character. In that show, Wendy is a performance coach working for a hedge fund whose job is to emotionally pump up the people who work for the hedge fund. The hedge fund employs her because (leaving aside the soa…

> More companies should employ such coaches and schedule regular sessions for all their employees. If everything's great, then great. If not, it's definitely cheaper than employee churn. Actually a few companies i know do that for their executive staff just not rank and file employees like in the show. Also if we’re talking about engineers beyond very early stage imo it would have very limited utility for the company

The idea that encouraging your engineers in some way — whether through this particular method or not — would have limited utility is absurd. It goes to show how poorly and inaccurately they are often regarded, and it’s no surprise to see it in another weekly 100-comment burnout HN thread.

Specifically having a therapist or a coach around is not a big concern, but if your company considers you and your performance important, you will be encouraged to develop yourself and develop your network in the company one way or the other. Whether this happens is the quickest way to determine if you are considered an NPC or not. For example, if travel between offices is common in your company, but you don’t travel and are just thrown in on projects with random people around the world, then you know it’s you. Main characters meet up, plan, improve, guide, imagine, act, change; NPCs more or less do what they’re told. If you rarely hear a word of encouragement or feedback about what you’re doing, it’s probably because nobody cares — or they think they could replace you in a week — and you should calibrate how much you care accordingly.

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#127

Post by whstl »

jimnotgym wrote: post #59
dasil003 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many cases I believe this is caused by cargo culting big company practices and not realizing how fast you can move at smaller scale by cutting out unnecessary ceremony and empowering those who prioritize building and learning over talking and pontificating.

Yes, I suppose it is cause and effect. Inexperienced managers read about FAANG, or perhaps more likely Basecamp, and decide to copy it. Also having a ton of VC money means you can afford to hire non-productive people too early.

Yep. Google, Spotify, Amazon, Basecamp.

Been in a few places that turned the cargo cult to eleven. Someone brings an article about squads at Spotify and suddenly the team hierarchy changes. Someone discovers a blogpost about how desks on Amazon were made out of doors in the early days and suddenly all new desks are made of doors. Google releases Material design and we have to redesign the whole thing. And there’s also the playground slide and the plastic ball pool.

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#128

Post by regulation_d »

throw888777 wrote: post #84

Here's my advice based on my personal experience with burnout. It's all easier said than done, I'm afraid. 1) People are part of the problem. You solve problems for customers with technical solutions, but your solutions should take into account people in the company. e.g. "how do I solve problem X with a manager that won't listen?" Other people are not a mysterious outside factor, they are a piece of the puzzle that…

I'm sure most of us have worked for shit companies that have taken advantage of us. In those cases, I think your points can be helpful.

But I'd also suggest that it's possible to find companies that align with your values, both around work/life balance and around the way the work gets done. That's certainly a skill that I've had to work to develop. And I've had some major misses along the way. But it's probably also the most important skill I've developed.

Owning your company's problems, at least a subset of them, is that fastest (only?) way to move up in a company. If you want to climb the ladder at all, you'll have to own some problems. The key is to do that for a company that recognizes and rewards that ownership. And as soon as they don't, then you become the merc and find a new thing.

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#129

Post by regulation_d »

reddoormat wrote: post #50

Throwaway account. I work at an early stage startup which I joined on the day one about two years ago. I don’t want to get into too much details but couple months ago we did a pivot, threw away most of the old product and now pretending the new offering is complete (it is the opposite). I was onboard with the new vision for the company but couple months ago I started noticing something isn’t right. I felt anxious, ti…

I've been in a similar situation. My advice is to make sure you budget in recovery time. I've had burnout that took 2 weeks to recover from, and I've have burnout that took 2 months to recover from. Just make sure you don't take on more "burnout debt" than you'll be able to repay before having to start your next thing.

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#130

Post by mrleinad »

>> creating space to recover from burnout in one area of my life, while coasting in others, then rotating until I finally had the mental and emotional space to plan my full escape

This has been my experience as well. But I started through an easier path, by working out and improving my health.

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