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Dreams are the default for intelligence

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Re: Dreams are the default for intelligence

#41

Post by bitwize »

harpiaharpyja wrote: post #2

I think it's an interesting potential answer to the ongoing question of "why do we have dreams, what evolutionary purpose do they serve?" Maybe the answer is that they do not need to serve any purpose because dreaming is actually the default mode - "normal" consciousness is the adaptation. From that perspective the evolutionary purpose (of normal rational consciousness) is obvious. Just musing here but I wonder if th…

I can tell you from firsthand experience that dogs dream. Some dogs "talk" in their sleep, move their legs as if walking or running -- the sequence from Cinderella (1950) when Bruno is dreaming of chasing Lucifer is only a slight to moderate exaggeration. A dreaming dog is definitely in a place far removed from waking life -- perhaps one where steaks grow on trees and blood-soaked frisbees fly through the air for no reason.

Re: Dreams are the default for intelligence

#42

Post by emmelaich »

mrangle wrote: post #35

Possibly related: I have a pet theory that holds that primarily attentive ADHD (ADHD-PI) is actually a facet of the type of autism that used to be called Asperger's. And that ADHD, generally, is an extension just outside of the autism spectrum: possibly bridging into it with ADHD-PI if not the other ADHD classifications. One of ADHD-PI's most noticeable traits is virtually uncontrollable daydreaming. When auditory /…

> Which may have existed in human populations from the beginning

Well, autism is said to related to percent of Neanderthal. e.g. (2016) https://newsroom.uw.edu/story/human-neanderthal-gene-varianc...

Re: Dreams are the default for intelligence

#43

Post by refset »

kgwxd wrote: post #24
lisper wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the time when I'm dreaming it never even occurs to me that I might be in a dream until I wake up. I have even had some cases where it did occur to me, and I started lucid dreaming (which was very cool), but then I reverted to my default this-must-be-real dreaming state. That was very weird.

I usually become highly aware I’m dreaming when I’m able to kind of float around (not fly, more like low gravity mixed with a near-floor hovering) but the “wow” of it turns into “this is just reality, no big deal” so fast I never get a chance to try to consciously shape the dream.

I can relate heavily. The recurring ability to hover by kicking my legs around is profoundly liberating and a deeply familiar sensation at this point. Dreams feel like living a parallel life :)

Re: Dreams are the default for intelligence

#44

Post by thealchemistdev »

idleproc wrote: post #12

I read a book about lucid dreaming a while back, and it said something like: the easiest way to tell you are in a dream is to look at something mechanical or complicated. The idea seemed to be: if you could get your dreaming mind to look at your hand and then turn it over to the other side, you didn't have the mental 'bandwidth' to imagine the opposite side correctly, and you'd realize you were dreaming. Equally, if…

I am almost constantly trying telekinesis. If it works, I'm dreaming. It not, I'm here. It's a fun game to play during the day to day as well.

Re: Dreams are the default for intelligence

#45

Post by electrondood »

JoeyJoJoJr wrote: post #25
idleproc wrote: post #12

I read a book about lucid dreaming a while back, and it said something like: the easiest way to tell you are in a dream is to look at something mechanical or complicated. The idea seemed to be: if you could get your dreaming mind to look at your hand and then turn it over to the other side, you didn't have the mental 'bandwidth' to imagine the opposite side correctly, and you'd realize you were dreaming. Equally, if…

I would look at my hands in lucid dreams and they would appear in extreme detail, as if I could comprehend both its general form as well as every single grove in my fingerprints. I’m pretty sure I tried to turn them over and was able to see all around them. One thing I find fascinating about dreaming is that it seems that the dream wants to prevent you from staying lucid. When I become aware that I am dreaming I “wak…

> the dream wants to prevent you from staying lucid

What we consider waking life, reality, etc. is the same. The mechanism of the hypnosis is the constant identification with phenomena, which creates the sense of being a person, which is nothing more than a conceptual abstraction.

Re: Dreams are the default for intelligence

#46

Post by electrondood »

emmelaich wrote: post #38
irrational wrote: post #4

I hope this isn’t true. I’m in my 50s and I have never dreamed. By that I mean, I have never woken up from sleeping and remembered anything happening between the time I fell asleep and I awoke. It’s a complete blank. Maybe I do dream, but I have no proof or indication that I do. I never have. As a side note, it really bothers me when dreaming is used as a plot device in books. I can’t relate at all to the concept of…

If you're really curious you could use the Salvador Dali method: hold cutlery in your hand. When you sleep, you drop the cutlery and wake up from the noise. Repeat until hallucination. Probably not healthy for you though!

It needn't be cutlery, any object like your keys will work. I believe he held one in each hand, over metal plates on the floor to make a louder sound.

Re: Dreams are the default for intelligence

#47

Post by noodles_nomore »

godshatter wrote: post #37
idleproc wrote: post #12

I read a book about lucid dreaming a while back, and it said something like: the easiest way to tell you are in a dream is to look at something mechanical or complicated. The idea seemed to be: if you could get your dreaming mind to look at your hand and then turn it over to the other side, you didn't have the mental 'bandwidth' to imagine the opposite side correctly, and you'd realize you were dreaming. Equally, if…

I used to lucid dream regularly (need to get back to it - it's a lot of fun). I used a reality check where I would try to (lightly) blow air through my nose when my hand was closing it off. If I could I was dreaming. I did this randomly during my waking hours every so often when I had some indication that something was different and I needed to test reality. Whenever I would come semi-aware when I was dreaming I woul…

I had chronic sleep paralysis for many years. One thing I eventually figured out is that I still had control over my breathing, and I could hyper-ventilate myself awake. Sleep pararalysis then stopped either because I aquired that skill or because I stopped eating gluten.

Re: Dreams are the default for intelligence

#48

Post by quesera »

harpiaharpyja wrote: post #2

I think it's an interesting potential answer to the ongoing question of "why do we have dreams, what evolutionary purpose do they serve?" Maybe the answer is that they do not need to serve any purpose because dreaming is actually the default mode - "normal" consciousness is the adaptation. From that perspective the evolutionary purpose (of normal rational consciousness) is obvious. Just musing here but I wonder if th…

My (uninformed!) theory is that dreams are just what brains/neurons appear to do when the driving signal (thought) is mostly disconnected, but the filter (interpretation) is still active.

I.e. just neural noise, following pathway patterns by biological necessity, but shaped into conceptual patterns by our overactive pattern matchers which do a ton of work to arrange input into a limited set of "observations".

If that's true, nothing we ever dream is truly novel, but just assembled or permuted from the giant set of our own known or imagined pieces.

Which seems pretty consistent with my dreams, at least. And it explains the phenomenon be being unable to recognize the dream state without altering it. Heisendreams!

Re: Dreams are the default for intelligence

#49

Post by macrolime »

idleproc wrote: post #12

I read a book about lucid dreaming a while back, and it said something like: the easiest way to tell you are in a dream is to look at something mechanical or complicated. The idea seemed to be: if you could get your dreaming mind to look at your hand and then turn it over to the other side, you didn't have the mental 'bandwidth' to imagine the opposite side correctly, and you'd realize you were dreaming. Equally, if…

The method I found to work most consistent in getting to a lucid dream is to wear a wristwatch with a vibrating alarm (noisy alarm clock makes you too awake) and then set it to wake me after I've slept something like 4-5 hours. Then I'll be really tired and fall asleep again almost immediately, but when I'm falling asleep fast it's easier to notice and focus on hypnagogic patterns. Hypnagogic pattern are patterns of light you can see behind your eyelids as you fall asleep and then they become more and more focused until they turn into a dream. It's hard to keep the focus, but doing after waking up just slightly from a vibrating alarm clock and then not moving the body at all, makes it much easier as the patterns then come really fast and quickly turns into a dream and if you manage to keep the focus you basically just go from being awake and straight into a lucid dream. The problem is it fucks up sleep a bit, so should have a few hours extra to sleep in the morning.

Re: Dreams are the default for intelligence

#50

Post by nocsi »

mrangle wrote: post #35

Possibly related: I have a pet theory that holds that primarily attentive ADHD (ADHD-PI) is actually a facet of the type of autism that used to be called Asperger's. And that ADHD, generally, is an extension just outside of the autism spectrum: possibly bridging into it with ADHD-PI if not the other ADHD classifications. One of ADHD-PI's most noticeable traits is virtually uncontrollable daydreaming. When auditory /…

It’s not just the visual processing aspect but also the ability to assemble completely novel mental imageries. There’s a link between those with ADHD and having hyperphantasia, or having extremely vivid imaginations. Can someone daydream if they can’t imagine objects?
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