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Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

nautil.us

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Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#131

Post by rayiner »

swalling wrote: post #123
rayiner wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assertion that gender is “socially constructed” does merit the anti-woke talking point. Mammals have social roles based on biological sex: female penguins do one thing, male penguins do a different thing. Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. Like everything else, humans have layered social and cultural constructs on top of sex and gender. For example, cultures have different ways of marking the transit…

It’s not true that biological sex is completely deterministic in the behavior of non-human animals. For instance: there are gay penguins where two males will adopt eggs to hatch and raise chicks. Homosexuality and associated behavior changes are observed in a wide array of species. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals Conservatives trying to use biology to argue that gender and sex are fully e…

If your homosexuality, which is biologically rooted, is associated with behavior changes, doesn’t that support the conclusion that gendered behavior is rooted in biology rather than socially constructed?

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#132

Post by jimmygrapes »

rayiner wrote: post #25
cantSpellSober wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're describing a difference in sex vs gender. From the linked article: > Gender [...] involves a set of behaviors and norms that shape how men and women act, prescribe how they ought to be, and specify what it means to be a man or a woman > ... Unlike in any other animal, gendered behavior in humans is wildly different across cultures Sex needs a definition too: > Sex appeared to be purely, simply genetic—until 1…

The assertion that gender is “socially constructed” does merit the anti-woke talking point. Mammals have social roles based on biological sex: female penguins do one thing, male penguins do a different thing. Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. Like everything else, humans have layered social and cultural constructs on top of sex and gender. For example, cultures have different ways of marking the transit…

No argument here but I feel like you used penguins as an example knowing full well someone would respond with "oh yeah well penguins are well documented to exhibit homosexual behaviors!!"

I mean of all possible mammals to choose as an example for your point (presuming in good faith that your actual point was as stated), penguin is an unusual choice. Maybe you just happened to have penguins in mind as an example of a mammal, I don't know.

Oh, and by the way: penguins aren't mammals! Though I'm sure someone has already pointed that out, or at least I hope they did.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#134

Post by xupybd »

RajT88 wrote: post #45
rayiner wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assertion that gender is “socially constructed” does merit the anti-woke talking point. Mammals have social roles based on biological sex: female penguins do one thing, male penguins do a different thing. Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. Like everything else, humans have layered social and cultural constructs on top of sex and gender. For example, cultures have different ways of marking the transit…

> Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. It is fundamentally different. The range of behaviors that Humans have is fundamentally far, far more broad than animals, because we are much more intelligent creatures. Example from a few thousand years ago: Farming, Cooking food. More recent examples: Fixing cars, doing taxes. Most of what Humans spend their time doing these days are things that animals don't do in…

>The range of behaviors that Humans have is fundamentally far, far more broad than animals, because we are much more intelligent creatures.

This is a difference in scale not a difference of kind.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#135

Post by xupybd »

jghn wrote: post #127
rayiner wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assertion that gender is “socially constructed” does merit the anti-woke talking point. Mammals have social roles based on biological sex: female penguins do one thing, male penguins do a different thing. Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. Like everything else, humans have layered social and cultural constructs on top of sex and gender. For example, cultures have different ways of marking the transit…

> female penguins do one thing, male penguins do a different thing. Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. Do you know this to be true for the set of *all* penguins? Or just most of them?

It's an interesting concept that generalizations can be true without applying to every case. For example, the statement "humans have one heart" is generally true, but there are exceptions where people have had an additional heart surgically added to assist a failing heart. Similarly, while it's common to say that humans have ten fingers, there are variations where some people are born with more or less, or have lost fingers due to accidents. Eye color is another example where we can't make a universal claim about humans. Although brown eyes are common, the number of people with blue or green eyes is significant enough that we can't say all humans have brown eyes.

So, when we say "humans have X," it doesn't mean every single human has X. Rather, it means that a significant enough number of humans have X for us to consider it a characteristic of our species.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#136

Post by paulddraper »

mantas wrote: post #88
cantSpellSober wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> English translation would be literally „transgender“. So you... do have a word meaning "transgender?"

Or „transsex“ if there's such English word? Word „translytis“ is used specifically for those who attempted transitioning man woman.

"transsex"/"transsexual" are English words, though they're seen as more archaic and non-inclusive.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#137

Post by RajT88 »

xupybd wrote: post #134
RajT88 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. It is fundamentally different. The range of behaviors that Humans have is fundamentally far, far more broad than animals, because we are much more intelligent creatures. Example from a few thousand years ago: Farming, Cooking food. More recent examples: Fixing cars, doing taxes. Most of what Humans spend their time doing these days are things that animals don't do in…

>The range of behaviors that Humans have is fundamentally far, far more broad than animals, because we are much more intelligent creatures. This is a difference in scale not a difference of kind.

Keep reading the post! You'll get there.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#138

Post by xupybd »

RajT88 wrote: post #137
xupybd wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The range of behaviors that Humans have is fundamentally far, far more broad than animals, because we are much more intelligent creatures. This is a difference in scale not a difference of kind.

Keep reading the post! You'll get there.

I'm sorry. I have read the post and I don't understand what you are referring to.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#139

Post by prepend »

swalling wrote: post #123
rayiner wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assertion that gender is “socially constructed” does merit the anti-woke talking point. Mammals have social roles based on biological sex: female penguins do one thing, male penguins do a different thing. Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. Like everything else, humans have layered social and cultural constructs on top of sex and gender. For example, cultures have different ways of marking the transit…

It’s not true that biological sex is completely deterministic in the behavior of non-human animals. For instance: there are gay penguins where two males will adopt eggs to hatch and raise chicks. Homosexuality and associated behavior changes are observed in a wide array of species. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals Conservatives trying to use biology to argue that gender and sex are fully e…

> It’s not true that biological sex is completely deterministic in the behavior of non-human animals

I don’t think anyone claims it is completely deterministic.

But it is very significant, to the extent that is may as well as be completely for purposes of discussion or publishing papers.

While there are female lions that act in an atypical manner, the vast majority act similarly enough to say something like “female lions hunt for the pride” without need an asterisk.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#140

Post by giantg2 »

rsynnott wrote: post #119
giantg2 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I am mostly taking about US and similar countries. But changing gender in one of those other countries would likely be moot, right? Hmm, I haven't really seen gendered dress codes aside from schools (which could/should be rewritten to be gender neutral) or the "entertainment" industry (which is likely to descriminate regardless of dress code).

> But changing gender in one of those other countries would likely be moot, right? Things are more complicated than you might necessarily expect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_Iran (It's not just Iran; a number of countries, often extremely conservative countries, have _some_ form of cultural recognition of non-gender-normative people. Hijira in India would be a more complex example.) > Hmm, I h…

Interesting.

I am in an non-casual office. There isn't a strict dress code, just that it's "business appropriate".

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