Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think • Hacker News Board

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#81

Post by mantas » Thu, Apr 13, 2023, 1:57 PM UTC

cantSpellSober wrote: post #78

mantas wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny that many languages don't have this „gender vs sex“ separation. For example in my native language there's just one word to describe man/woman option. Some people try to bend over and invent new terms. That doesn't play well with claiming that somehow this „gender vs sex“ separation is not a new cultural phenomena.

Is Lithuanian your native language? Does this word not fit the defintion? https://www.techdico.com/translation/english-lithuanian/tran...

You're looking at a wrong word. The word man/woman option is „lytis“. Both „gender“ and „sex“ was usually translated as „lytis“. „Translytis“ is just a term made of two words and describing a person who is such. English translation would be literally „transgender“. And it's used for people who, well, transition.

There's an attempt to call „gender“ „socialinė lytis“ (= social sex). But doesn't make it sound like it's anything beyond socially constructed cultural phenomena.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#82

Post by mantas » Thu, Apr 13, 2023, 2:01 PM UTC

psychphysic wrote: post #40

cantSpellSober wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're describing a difference in sex vs gender. From the linked article: > Gender [...] involves a set of behaviors and norms that shape how men and women act, prescribe how they ought to be, and specify what it means to be a man or a woman > ... Unlike in any other animal, gendered behavior in humans is wildly different across cultures Sex needs a definition too: > Sex appeared to be purely, simply genetic—until 1…

I hear this reasoning often but never see it being applied in practice. For starters why are single sex sports and single sex changing rooms so controversial? Similarly if gender and sex are entirely distinct. Does that not mean that the trans community is the strongest supporter of traditional gender roles? Afterall what does it mean to change gender if differing social attitudes to gender ought be extinguished?

> For starters why are single sex sports and single sex changing rooms so controversial?

Because men are much stronger physically due to genetical differences. Just check out top records in various sports.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#83

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 13, 2023, 2:03 PM UTC

mantas wrote: post #75

cantSpellSober wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're describing a difference in sex vs gender. From the linked article: > Gender [...] involves a set of behaviors and norms that shape how men and women act, prescribe how they ought to be, and specify what it means to be a man or a woman > ... Unlike in any other animal, gendered behavior in humans is wildly different across cultures Sex needs a definition too: > Sex appeared to be purely, simply genetic—until 1…

It's funny that many languages don't have this „gender vs sex“ separation. For example in my native language there's just one word to describe man/woman option. Some people try to bend over and invent new terms. That doesn't play well with claiming that somehow this „gender vs sex“ separation is not a new cultural phenomena.

[deleted]

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#84

Post by gatlin » Thu, Apr 13, 2023, 2:03 PM UTC

RajT88 wrote: post #76

31337Logic wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is at this point, I believe, that it is entirely worth reminding ourselves that humans are, in fact, animals.

It's usually worth reminding ourselves of. I'm not sure what you're getting at here though.

They are getting at the point that as animals we can intellectualize all we want and will still have biological characteristics that fundamentally influence our behavior and culture.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#85

Post by gatlin » Thu, Apr 13, 2023, 2:04 PM UTC

cantSpellSober wrote: post #66

seti0Cha wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop using the "that's a talking point of the enemy" dismissal tactic. It's lazy and harmful to actual discussion.

Stop paraphrasing me, it's lazy and harmful to actual discussion. I pointed out why it's irrelevant.

You asked a pointed question.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#86

Post by cantSpellSober » Thu, Apr 13, 2023, 2:05 PM UTC

mantas wrote: post #81

cantSpellSober wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Lithuanian your native language? Does this word not fit the defintion? https://www.techdico.com/translation/english-lithuanian/tran...

You're looking at a wrong word. The word man/woman option is „lytis“. Both „gender“ and „sex“ was usually translated as „lytis“. „Translytis“ is just a term made of two words and describing a person who is such. English translation would be literally „transgender“. And it's used for people who, well, transition. There's an attempt to call „gender“ „socialinė lytis“ (= social sex). But doesn't make it sound like it's…

> English translation would be literally „transgender“.

So you...do have a word meaning "transgender?"

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#87

Post by giantg2 » Thu, Apr 13, 2023, 2:09 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #26

giantg2 wrote: post #11

"(a system that’s distinct from our diverse gender identities)" Please don't take this the wrong way, this is a genuine question. Is there an explaination somewhere of what purpose gender identities serve and what benefits that provides (ie why don't animals need them)? Aside from reproduction, I don't see how gender would really influence anything.

As gender dimorphism can influence external characteristics, I assume it can also influence personalities. If animals have any senses of identity (I think at least some non-human animals do) or beliefs about what their bodies "should" look like (passing the mirror test at least weakly implies so), then likewise. How much any of this is present in different species, and how much the range of personality traits can div…

I understand that. Then is this just an inherent cultural need for labeling of in-groups vs out-groups, or potential mates vs non-mates? In today's world, there's very little restriction on gender, and most of those restrictions do not change based on changing gender. For example, I can shave my legs and identify as a man, woman, or some other gender, but how does that change what I can and can't do?

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#88

Post by mantas » Thu, Apr 13, 2023, 2:18 PM UTC

cantSpellSober wrote: post #86

mantas wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're looking at a wrong word. The word man/woman option is „lytis“. Both „gender“ and „sex“ was usually translated as „lytis“. „Translytis“ is just a term made of two words and describing a person who is such. English translation would be literally „transgender“. And it's used for people who, well, transition. There's an attempt to call „gender“ „socialinė lytis“ (= social sex). But doesn't make it sound like it's…

> English translation would be literally „transgender“. So you... do have a word meaning "transgender?"

Or „transsex“ if there's such English word? Word „translytis“ is used specifically for those who attempted transitioning manwoman.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#89

Post by RajT88 » Thu, Apr 13, 2023, 2:26 PM UTC

gatlin wrote: post #84

RajT88 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's usually worth reminding ourselves of. I'm not sure what you're getting at here though.

They are getting at the point that as animals we can intellectualize all we want and will still have biological characteristics that fundamentally influence our behavior and culture.

> still have biological characteristics that fundamentally influence our behavior and culture.

I suspected as such. In my life, I've often heard this point trotted out to justify "Why men/women are good/bad at X thing", which is why I was asking what they were getting at, specifically. Even if they weren't getting at that, their comment doesn't add much by itself.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#90

Post by circlefavshape » Thu, Apr 13, 2023, 2:29 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #77

circlefavshape wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If biologists instead used a different common definition such as "female == able to get pregnant, otherwise male" then birds would be all be male, and seahorses wouldn't be associated with the sentence "weird biology fact: the males get pregnant!" "Common definition"? I don't think so. If it was my post-menopausal wife would now be a man I very much doubt that common-sense folks "assum[e] that words accurately and…

> "Common definition"? I don't think so. If it was my post-menopausal wife would now be a man I didn't say it was a good definition :) In fact, the very point you're making here is also commonly brought up whenever someone uses this common definition to try to argue against trans issues, which is how I know it's commonly used . I rather hopped that me saying "birds would be all be male" would be a hint that I didn't…

I think you're straw-manning the "common sense" view. "Unable to get pregnant" is actually not a common definition of "male", afaics