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Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

nautil.us

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Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#51

Post by debacle »

harpiaharpyja wrote: post #47
giantg2 wrote: post #11

"(a system that’s distinct from our diverse gender identities)" Please don't take this the wrong way, this is a genuine question. Is there an explaination somewhere of what purpose gender identities serve and what benefits that provides (ie why don't animals need them)? Aside from reproduction, I don't see how gender would really influence anything.

Why does this article even mention gender? It's completely unrelated to the topic at hand. Every mention of it is in some parenthetical jammed into the article with no logical flow.

Much of this "sex in nature is super complicated, actually" content is driven by the push for gender ideology in humans.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#52

Post by strken »

rayiner wrote: post #25
cantSpellSober wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're describing a difference in sex vs gender. From the linked article: > Gender [...] involves a set of behaviors and norms that shape how men and women act, prescribe how they ought to be, and specify what it means to be a man or a woman > ... Unlike in any other animal, gendered behavior in humans is wildly different across cultures Sex needs a definition too: > Sex appeared to be purely, simply genetic—until 1…

The assertion that gender is “socially constructed” does merit the anti-woke talking point. Mammals have social roles based on biological sex: female penguins do one thing, male penguins do a different thing. Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. Like everything else, humans have layered social and cultural constructs on top of sex and gender. For example, cultures have different ways of marking the transit…

This would be fascinating to explore outside the context of the culture war. To what extent is a penguin's social role learnt from other penguins vs biological? Do penguins raised in isolation or in small groups show more divergent sex-correlated behaviour than those raised in large groups? Would that mean they align behaviour based on what other penguins do?

It would be interesting if male birds learnt how to put on more successful mate displays by watching other males, or if birds set their standards by those of the opposite sex they grew up around. Humans obviously do this, and I wouldn't be surprised if other primates did too, but which other animals might?

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#53

Post by VeninVidiaVicii »

harpiaharpyja wrote: post #47
giantg2 wrote: post #11

"(a system that’s distinct from our diverse gender identities)" Please don't take this the wrong way, this is a genuine question. Is there an explaination somewhere of what purpose gender identities serve and what benefits that provides (ie why don't animals need them)? Aside from reproduction, I don't see how gender would really influence anything.

Why does this article even mention gender? It's completely unrelated to the topic at hand. Every mention of it is in some parenthetical jammed into the article with no logical flow.

It seems to be worth saying, considering the climate. Recently I was a teacher assistant in a genetics lab, and an undergrad student lodged a complaint against the professor for talking about some of this very same stuff, ie, biological determinants of sex. But the prof was quite oblivious with no idea about the current culture wars.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#54

Post by 31337Logic »

RajT88 wrote: post #45
rayiner wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assertion that gender is “socially constructed” does merit the anti-woke talking point. Mammals have social roles based on biological sex: female penguins do one thing, male penguins do a different thing. Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. Like everything else, humans have layered social and cultural constructs on top of sex and gender. For example, cultures have different ways of marking the transit…

> Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. It is fundamentally different. The range of behaviors that Humans have is fundamentally far, far more broad than animals, because we are much more intelligent creatures. Example from a few thousand years ago: Farming, Cooking food. More recent examples: Fixing cars, doing taxes. Most of what Humans spend their time doing these days are things that animals don't do in…

It is at this point, I believe, that it is entirely worth reminding ourselves that humans are, in fact, animals.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#55

Post by _pigpen__ »

“Animals don’t have socially defined gender.” Perhaps, but they can definitely have have socially defined sex. Clownfish live in hierarchical units. The dominant fish is an aggressive female. When she dies, the next dominant male will change sex and assume the role. If that isn’t social I don’t know what is. (And that’s one example there are at least a dozen species of fish that can change sex due to external factors.)

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#56

Post by psychphysic »

cantSpellSober wrote: post #49
psychphysic wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this reasoning often but never see it being applied in practice. For starters why are single sex sports and single sex changing rooms so controversial? Similarly if gender and sex are entirely distinct. Does that not mean that the trans community is the strongest supporter of traditional gender roles? Afterall what does it mean to change gender if differing social attitudes to gender ought be extinguished?

Locker rooms? You see these exact talking points copy and pasted a lot, do they relate to this specific article?

The article brings it up quite early on.

It's introduction and parallel with sex means the article makes a wider point about a difference between sex and gender. I agree this article could have been written better without any mention of gender so as to avoid making an out of scope claim in a pop sci article.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#57

Post by tlogan »

giantg2 wrote: post #11

"(a system that’s distinct from our diverse gender identities)" Please don't take this the wrong way, this is a genuine question. Is there an explaination somewhere of what purpose gender identities serve and what benefits that provides (ie why don't animals need them)? Aside from reproduction, I don't see how gender would really influence anything.

The reason gender roles have evolved differently can be attributed to the costs associated with reproduction for each sex. In our species, females tend to bear significantly higher reproductive costs than males. For example, men have the ability to father multiple offspring simultaneously, whereas women must devote substantial time and energy to pregnancy and childbirth.

These disparities in reproductive investment have contributed to the development of distinct gender roles over time.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#58

Post by tekla »

psychphysic wrote: post #40
cantSpellSober wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're describing a difference in sex vs gender. From the linked article: > Gender [...] involves a set of behaviors and norms that shape how men and women act, prescribe how they ought to be, and specify what it means to be a man or a woman > ... Unlike in any other animal, gendered behavior in humans is wildly different across cultures Sex needs a definition too: > Sex appeared to be purely, simply genetic—until 1…

I hear this reasoning often but never see it being applied in practice. For starters why are single sex sports and single sex changing rooms so controversial? Similarly if gender and sex are entirely distinct. Does that not mean that the trans community is the strongest supporter of traditional gender roles? Afterall what does it mean to change gender if differing social attitudes to gender ought be extinguished?

>For starters why are single sex sports and single sex changing rooms so controversial?

It denies the different "gender roles"

> Does that not mean that the trans community is the strongest supporter of traditional gender roles?

Um yes? That's been a sticking point for quite a while.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#59

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

flippinburgers wrote: post #33
ben_w wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sad? No, it is just a consequence of complex reality butting up against a "common sense" (including the quote marks) derived from incorrectly assuming that words accurately and unambiguously carve up reality. If biologists instead used a different common definition such as "female == able to get pregnant, otherwise male" then birds would be all be male, and seahorses wouldn't be associated with the sentence "weird bi…

Birds are not mammals. Fish are not mammals. Mammals on the other hand have males that impregnate the females.

Someone forgot that the platypus exists.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#60

Post by paxcoder »

capableweb wrote: post #17
giantg2 wrote: post #11

"(a system that’s distinct from our diverse gender identities)" Please don't take this the wrong way, this is a genuine question. Is there an explaination somewhere of what purpose gender identities serve and what benefits that provides (ie why don't animals need them)? Aside from reproduction, I don't see how gender would really influence anything.

> ie why don't animals need them Is there a reason to believe it doesn't exists in animals as well? Homosexuality is common in many species, are some individual animals in those species more prone to homosexual "relationships" than others? If so, maybe those animals are feeling some sort of expression by their gender identity based on their preference. I'm guessing gender identities serve the same purpose as individu…

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