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Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

nautil.us

31–40 of 182 posts

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#31

Throughout the history of biology, psychology, cognitive science, and neurosciences, there has been a constant back and forth between those who would exaggerate sex differences, and those who would understate sex-differences as purely social constructs with no affect on biology other than what is caused via experienced socializations. The truth is more complicated than any of those extremes. Important differences in…

FYI, I am a scientist that studies sex and gender in autism.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#32
post #11

"(a system that’s distinct from our diverse gender identities)" Please don't take this the wrong way, this is a genuine question. Is there an explaination somewhere of what purpose gender identities serve and what benefits that provides (ie why don't animals need them)? Aside from reproduction, I don't see how gender would really influence anything.

Gender identity was synonymous with sex.

Today it seems to have morphed into something on a spectrum from being synonymous with sex to having no meaning at all. It seems worth avoiding for the sake of discussions around sex.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#33
post #13
post #9

Biologists use the word “female” to describe organs or organisms that produce eggs, and “male” for those that produce sperm; animals do not have socially constructed genders. Sad times when such disclaimers are necessary.

Sad? No, it is just a consequence of complex reality butting up against a "common sense" (including the quote marks) derived from incorrectly assuming that words accurately and unambiguously carve up reality. If biologists instead used a different common definition such as "female == able to get pregnant, otherwise male" then birds would be all be male, and seahorses wouldn't be associated with the sentence "weird bi…

Birds are not mammals. Fish are not mammals. Mammals on the other hand have males that impregnate the females.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#34
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sad? No, it is just a consequence of complex reality butting up against a "common sense" (including the quote marks) derived from incorrectly assuming that words accurately and unambiguously carve up reality. If biologists instead used a different common definition such as "female == able to get pregnant, otherwise male" then birds would be all be male, and seahorses wouldn't be associated with the sentence "weird bi…

Back when I was taught Biology in school, “female“ meant “having the larger gamete”.

Strange, I was taught that sex that determines whether a sexually reproducing organism produces male or female gametes.

You're describing anisogamy. Large males are sexually selected for in elephant seals because they can fight off other males, but small males are sexually selected for in spiders for they can mate with the female quickly while avoiding being eaten.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#36
post #11

"(a system that’s distinct from our diverse gender identities)" Please don't take this the wrong way, this is a genuine question. Is there an explaination somewhere of what purpose gender identities serve and what benefits that provides (ie why don't animals need them)? Aside from reproduction, I don't see how gender would really influence anything.

Do you mean biological purpose? This may be the wrong question to ask; gender is arguably to a large extent part of _culture_, which is more or less the stuff that we've built on top of biology.

There's no _biological_ reason that ancient Celtic women were allowed own property while contemporary ancient Roman women were a literal possession of their father or husband and ancient Greek women weren't really allowed leave the house; that was _culture_. (Simplified example, btw; there were edge-cases where Roman women were essentially emancipated, say, and Celtic and Greek practices differed dramatically by region, but even within a pretty restricted time and area of the world there were massive differences in how this all worked)

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#37
post #9

Biologists use the word “female” to describe organs or organisms that produce eggs, and “male” for those that produce sperm; animals do not have socially constructed genders. Sad times when such disclaimers are necessary.

I'm impressed: the article is about the rich diversity of different sexes in nature (it does not even go into gender) but all you are getting out of it is some anti-woke sentiment?

Could you please re-read the article and at least absorb the complexity of sex and biology in nature in general? At least be a bit amazed how little we seem to grasp about reproductive processes even on a biological level. And then maybe even feel the need a little to reflect how the article might mean that you're not living in such "sad times" but (maybe) the opposite.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#38
post #11

"(a system that’s distinct from our diverse gender identities)" Please don't take this the wrong way, this is a genuine question. Is there an explaination somewhere of what purpose gender identities serve and what benefits that provides (ie why don't animals need them)? Aside from reproduction, I don't see how gender would really influence anything.

https://nautil.us/no-animals-do-not-have-genders-237938/

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#39
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're describing a difference in sex vs gender. From the linked article: > Gender [...] involves a set of behaviors and norms that shape how men and women act, prescribe how they ought to be, and specify what it means to be a man or a woman > ... Unlike in any other animal, gendered behavior in humans is wildly different across cultures Sex needs a definition too: > Sex appeared to be purely, simply genetic—until 1…

The assertion that gender is “socially constructed” does merit the anti-woke talking point. Mammals have social roles based on biological sex: female penguins do one thing, male penguins do a different thing. Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. Like everything else, humans have layered social and cultural constructs on top of sex and gender. For example, cultures have different ways of marking the transit…

Gendered behavior in humans is different; it's wildly different across cultures.

> The assertion that gender is “socially constructed”

Who asserted this? A straw man?

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#40
post #9

Biologists use the word “female” to describe organs or organisms that produce eggs, and “male” for those that produce sperm; animals do not have socially constructed genders. Sad times when such disclaimers are necessary.

They're describing a difference in sex vs gender. From the linked article: > Gender [...] involves a set of behaviors and norms that shape how men and women act, prescribe how they ought to be, and specify what it means to be a man or a woman > ... Unlike in any other animal, gendered behavior in humans is wildly different across cultures Sex needs a definition too: > Sex appeared to be purely, simply genetic—until 1…

I hear this reasoning often but never see it being applied in practice.

For starters why are single sex sports and single sex changing rooms so controversial?

Similarly if gender and sex are entirely distinct. Does that not mean that the trans community is the strongest supporter of traditional gender roles? Afterall what does it mean to change gender if differing social attitudes to gender ought be extinguished?

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