Meme group on Discord is focus of uproar over leaked Pentagon documents • Hacker News Board

Re: Meme group on Discord is focus of uproar over leaked Pentagon documents

#61

Post by jackothy » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 9:43 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #50

tomcam wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cannot disagree enough. I love having dinner with people who are different from me if civil discourse is available. However, I am a US citizen, where free speech is fairly highly valued. > "If you and 9 of your friends have a dinner with a Nazi, there are 11 Nazis around that table." It is risible that one would make that accusation, by the way.

> if civil discourse is available If we're talking about actual Nazis and not "everyone I disagree with is literally worse than Hitler" insult inflation, then it necessarily follows that civil discourse is not available . Why? Because they mass-murdered people like me. So, tough luck. If you use your freedom to pick them, I'll use mine to refuse you.

I'm pretty sure that even an actual Nazi would realize that they do not have the option to just straight up murder you right then and there at the restaurant table. A person also does not need to be uncontrollably angry at to qualify as a Nazi. As one example, cynical and dispassionate severe dehumanization of would also qualify you as a Nazi in my book. A Nazi who is cynical and dispassionate, rather than uncontrollably angry, might be able to sit at a restaurant table and maintain civil discourse with a member of , either because the Nazi sees it as some kind of mental exercise, a display of his superior temper, logic and virtue, or whatever.

The point is, it is not physically impossible for a member of to participate in civil discourse with actual Nazis. It just depends on the specific Nazi in question.

Re: Meme group on Discord is focus of uproar over leaked Pentagon documents

#62

Post by jackothy » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 9:50 PM UTC

micromacrofoot wrote: post #41

ekam wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guilt by association makes no sense… would this also apply to eg, communists?

It's guilt by selective association. If you regularly visit /b you know there are a lot of white nationalists there, by continuing to use /b you're choosing to associate with that kind of content.

But the mere association itself does not mean you agree with that kind of content. As an example, would you vilify a scientist studying extremism because he regularly reads Neo-Nazi forums for his research?

There are many reasons to read something other than "I am reading this because I love and agree with every aspect of it". In fact, it is probably common knowledge that only ever reading stuff you wholeheartedly agree with is quite a bad idea. Echo chambers, social media "bubbles" and all that. Also, it can be good to build a tougher skin, can't it?

Re: Meme group on Discord is focus of uproar over leaked Pentagon documents

#63

Post by carom » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 9:52 PM UTC

giraffe_lady wrote: post #59

carom wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone might say the same thing about trans people. Should I be extremely uncomfortable talking to a trans person? Of course not. Many people think I should though. As for white nationalists, when engaging in discussion with someone you disagree with you have the opportunity to change their mind. We're all human. We won't always agree. I'm happy to meet everybody as human beings.

You don't have the opportunity to change their mind that's an illusion that works in their favor: “Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play.…

>But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly

You don't have to watch your words on 4chan though. You can literally just make fun of them.

You can larp as whoever you want to get a rise out of whoever you want. That is mostly what the site is. While you're larping as a nazi you're being exposed to every other political point of view, every gender, every race, and every sexuality.

How many real nazis do you think are comfortable looking at femboy threads all day? Is that really their choice forum? Hate speech and anthropomorphic dogs?

Re: Meme group on Discord is focus of uproar over leaked Pentagon documents

#64

Post by 876978095789789 » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 9:55 PM UTC

flangola7 wrote: post #53

876978095789789 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

We learned why you don't give anti-Semites the benefit of the doubt many decades ago. "It's just a joke" up until it isn't, and by then it's far too late. The NZ mosque shooter's manifesto was almost literally one long 4chan meme thread. There were pages and pages of images and charts and memes that were (and still are) posted to 4chan every day. He openly stated he wasn't always racist and that /pol/ significantly c…

> images and charts and memes that were (and still are) posted to 4chan every day

Look, if people posting charts and memes you find distasteful bothers you this much, you frankly don't belong on the internet. And you can post the opposite perspective on 4chan, without censorship: you can be pro-Communist, anti-Ukraine, pro-CCP, whatever.

And if I wanted to, I could probably play the same game as you and mine the Nashville shooter's manifesto for examples of influences to target for censorship, except strangely, for some reason, they won't release it.

Re: Meme group on Discord is focus of uproar over leaked Pentagon documents

#65

Post by ben_w » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 9:56 PM UTC

jackothy wrote: post #61

ben_w wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if civil discourse is available If we're talking about actual Nazis and not "everyone I disagree with is literally worse than Hitler" insult inflation, then it necessarily follows that civil discourse is not available . Why? Because they mass-murdered people like me. So, tough luck. If you use your freedom to pick them, I'll use mine to refuse you.

I'm pretty sure that even an actual Nazi would realize that they do not have the option to just straight up murder you right then and there at the restaurant table. A person also does not need to be uncontrollably angry at to qualify as a Nazi. As one example, cynical and dispassionate severe dehumanization of would also qualify you as a Nazi in my book. A Nazi who is cynical and dispassionate, rather than uncontroll…

> I'm pretty sure that even an actualy Nazi would realize that they do not have the option to just straight up murder you right then and there at the restaurant table.

The fact that you think that's a counter argument, indicates you have severely failed to consider my perspective.

I won't willing hang out with you if you knowingly hang out with them. If you try to force me to hang out with you, I believe you would be breaking the law.

Furthermore, if they were in my country, I'd have them arrested because membership of that group is outlawed here.

There is no possibility of civil discourse, not only between me and someone who wants me dead (which wasn't actually the scenario I was describing even though it was clearly what you described in the quote), but there is also no possibility of civil discourse between me and those who tolerate those who wish me dead.

If we meet IRL, and you try to defend actual literal Nazis, the most civil I'll be able to be is getting up and leaving, not any kind of discussion. It's hard enough to not be enraged right now, and here I have the benefit of an edit button and the emotional distance that comes with text.

Re: Meme group on Discord is focus of uproar over leaked Pentagon documents

#66

Post by micromacrofoot » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 9:57 PM UTC

jackothy wrote: post #62

micromacrofoot wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's guilt by selective association. If you regularly visit /b you know there are a lot of white nationalists there, by continuing to use /b you're choosing to associate with that kind of content.

But the mere association itself does not mean you agree with that kind of content. As an example, would you vilify a scientist studying extremism because he regularly reads Neo-Nazi forums for his research? There are many reasons to read something other than "I am reading this because I love and agree with every aspect of it". In fact, it is probably common knowledge that only ever reading stuff you wholeheartedly ag…

Come on, what is this argument? /b/ users aren't doing academic research and you know that. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but I'm talking about the average /b/ user here... the site is rife with racism.

Are you seriously claiming that people should visit /b/ to avoid echo chambers? Have you been to /b/? I'd argue that it's probably more productive to change your perspective by hitting yourself in the head with a hammer. You're not being freed from your echo chamber by listening to people who support genocide.

Re: Meme group on Discord is focus of uproar over leaked Pentagon documents

#67

Post by Sohcahtoa82 » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 9:57 PM UTC

876978095789789 wrote: post #47

beebmam wrote: post #24

I think the accusation that 4chan is a far-right message board is accurate, and I believe that accusation can be supported by showing that 4chan's explicitly stated rules can be used to plausibly deny this accusation, while demonstrating that they're are not enforced (or selectively enforced). 4chan's Rule 3: "You will not post any of the following outside of /b/: Troll posts, Racism, Anthropomorphic ("furry") pornog…

[flagged]

> Often the posters don't even believe what they're posting.

When I used to visit 4chan for entertainment in 2009, I believed this too, but the veil came off a long time ago.

If you have a board where it's acceptable to pretend to be racist, antisemitic, etc, then eventually your board will fill with actual racists, antisemites, etc.

/r/The_Donald started as a subreddit where people thought the idea of Trump becoming POTUS was hilarious, stupid, could never happen, and people cheered him on for the lulz. Over time, it became a home base for his most rabid supporters.

Back on the original point, do you know what you call someone who pretends to be racist?

A racist.

Re: Meme group on Discord is focus of uproar over leaked Pentagon documents

#68

Post by micromacrofoot » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 10:01 PM UTC

carom wrote: post #48

micromacrofoot wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're free to go on there and deride any white nationalists you see Yes but you can do this anywhere. There are a limited number of places where you can openly be a white nationalist without being banned, 4chan is one of them.

You can also be a communist. You can also be an open source maximalist. You can also be a gay dog furry. You can also be trans. You can also be extremely autistic. It is good to have a place where people can exist as themselves and be exposed to different ideas. I would wager that most people who go there are far more accepting than the general population.

It's ok to be a communist, it's ok to use open source software, it's ok to be gay, a furry, trans, or autistic.

It's not ok to be a white nationalist. /b/ and other 4chan boards do not ban white nationalists.

Re: Meme group on Discord is focus of uproar over leaked Pentagon documents

#69

Post by beebmam » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 10:13 PM UTC

micromacrofoot wrote: post #37

carom wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people of all political persuasions on 4chan. You're free to go on there and deride any white nationalists you see. No one will ban you.

> You're free to go on there and deride any white nationalists you see Yes but you can do this anywhere. There are a limited number of places where you can openly be a white nationalist without being banned, 4chan is one of them.

For what it's worth, you can openly be a white nationalist (or black nationalist, or any other kind of racial nationalist) on most social media, even here on Hacker News.

However, you will be moderated if you say anything extremely violent/racist on most social media sites. That's a good thing, in my opinion. I can understand if someone doesn't think it's a good thing that that content is moderated.

I'd take the argument that 4chan isn't a site for the far-right more seriously if 4chan didn't have these explicit rules which they don't enforce (or selectively enforce). But it's pretty clear what kind of rules are allowed to be broken on that site and what kind of rules aren't allowed to be broken. Take one glance at /pol/ for an example.

Re: Meme group on Discord is focus of uproar over leaked Pentagon documents

#70

Post by jackothy » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 10:19 PM UTC

micromacrofoot wrote: post #66

jackothy wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the mere association itself does not mean you agree with that kind of content. As an example, would you vilify a scientist studying extremism because he regularly reads Neo-Nazi forums for his research? There are many reasons to read something other than "I am reading this because I love and agree with every aspect of it". In fact, it is probably common knowledge that only ever reading stuff you wholeheartedly ag…

Come on, what is this argument? /b/ users aren't doing academic research and you know that. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but I'm talking about the average /b/ user here... the site is rife with racism. Are you seriously claiming that people should visit /b/ to avoid echo chambers? Have you been to /b/? I'd argue that it's probably more productive to change your perspective by hitting yourself in the…

I don't think I have ever been to /b/, and it could very well be a valid claim that most /b/ frequenters are assholes. I'm glad to see you acknowledge that there are exceptions to every rule.

My comment is meant more as a defense of 4chan as a whole. I have seen valuable information originate from their technology board, for example. I just don't want to see prejudice against any and all 4chan users. Blanket application of "guilt by association", which seems to be advocated in neighboring threads, seems horrible to me.

I just hope people will be willing to engage with any other person up to the point that they actively prove to you in person that they are a jackass. Trying to look for signs that the other person is secretly a jackass is not a great approach.