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Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

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Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#261

Post by physPop »

saghm wrote: post #243
mtrower wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because you led in with “to be fair”? Perhaps “as an aside” may have been more appropriate, to indicate an intentional context switch? Your point is valid as a tangent, but it doesn’t read as a tangent to me - it reads as attempting to address the point you are responding to. Just my two cents here.

I guess that's possible. I don't tend to spend a lot of time thinking about introductory phrases like that either when reading or writing; they mostly convey tone and flow to me rather than being super meaningful, but I could see other people focusing on them more causing a disconnect.

A tip for your future: if someone doesn't understand what you write, say, or draw, that is squarely on you. "I don't tend to spend a lot of time thinking about... ". Putting information or statements into context is a key, core part of effectively communicating. "I guess thats possible" -- no, you don't guess, several people just TOLD you that is how they interpreted your words. Your response can't be indignance or ignorance. Your response must be "I will endeavour to communicate better next time, and clarify my message for you."

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#262

Post by mtrower »

sethammons wrote: post #44
postalrat wrote: post #42

Context switching is a skill you can and will improve as you get interrupted throughout your career.

that is one of the arguments in favor of the pomodoro productivity technique. For the unaware, pomodoro says to set a timer and do 25min of non-distracted work. Come up for air (mandatory stop) for 5 minutes. Rinse and repeat a few times. Some studies claim it takes 20min to get into the zone, but pomodoro insists on breaking that flow about 5 minutes later. The end result is training yourself to pick back up where y…

This doesn’t really invalidate those studies. What it does do, is force you to restructure your work so that you can get work done anyway.

Whether it’s more or less effective than interrupted, “zoned” work is going to depend on the individual and the circumstances, but it is certainly a way to work.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#263

Post by NoPicklez »

mtrower wrote: post #210
NoPicklez wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Non programmers won't get it" Complete ignorance for what other jobs do. Writing code is not so different from writing long reports. When I am writing a long report, I need to focus as well and do not want to be interrupted. Programming is not the only job that requires deep thought and concentration.

You’re right, but… do you write long reports, all day, every day?

I write long reports for engagements following a significant amount of document review and research.

Again, it is silly to think that programming is the only profession that requires concentrated thought.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#264

Post by wpietri »

bsenftner wrote: post #201
qikInNdOutReply wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cause of all this is the grafted on management caste, that does not code. For them the whole endavour suspicously looks like not doing a thing, for to do a thing, there needs to be communication, information flowing up and down the hierarchy. Not some dude sitting there like a zen monk, reading, ocassionally typing. Slackers! Best load there calendars, to get them going..

I'd say the cause of this is the developers can't explain themselves, cannot defend why they need isolation, why they should not be interrupted, and more often than not can't explain what they do, what their jobs are and why they are required, in an understandable manner to the management caste. They act as they do because the developers are an opaque pool who talk nonsense when asked questions. Of course they/we get…

Nah. I am extremely good at explaining these things. At this point I have a deep grounding in the theory of work. Explaining isn't enough, because the people with power don't care about the same things. Productivity is just not that important at most companies. Conformance to the feelings of the people at the top of the primate dominance hierarchy is generally what matters most.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#265

Post by z3ugma »

rtpg wrote: post #161
dijit wrote: post #156

I don't remember where I read it, in a book or on HN or even if someone told it to me. But I learned that when requesting time or disruption: certain positions need specialised handling. An example: A receptionist does not necessarily need focus time, and is interrupt driven, so their work should not stretch to more than 5 minute intervals; if something takes more than 5 minutes it must be filed for someone else. A m…

I feel that this is extremely dismissive of the reality that other people do in fact have similar focus requirements, but simply have learned to take notes or otherwise deal with interruptions. There are more demand driven roles but probably every person you interface with on a day to day basis professionally has hard work to do. Sales copy? Focus. Figuring out some accounting discrepancy? Focus. Trying to actually p…

I fully agree with you. I’ve been a software developer, a customer support engineer, and a product manager. My focus is also distracted by meetings and urgent things. My work is also best done when I have some time to focus. Everyone else in the professional world learns to defend their time, turn off interruptions, say no to meetings or decline them and ask for a reschedule. I actually view this as an undervaluing of communication and teamwork skills in the way we educate and hire software engineers.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#266

Post by mtrower »

NoPicklez wrote: post #263
mtrower wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right, but… do you write long reports, all day, every day?

I write long reports for engagements following a significant amount of document review and research. Again, it is silly to think that programming is the only profession that requires concentrated thought.

Of course that would be silly. Who is claiming that?

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#267

Post by mtrower »

rtpg wrote: post #205
mtrower wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel in turn that this comment is the dismissive one, and in fact extremely so. The issue is not that programmers need to focus, is that they need to focus on deep, complex work. At least a few of those other tasks you mention (don’t have much experience with sales copy, and in rather terrible with both sales and copy) do require focus but have smaller reasonable increments of progress. Stop thinking about the work…

As someone who's had to come up with product copy and have had to fix bugs, people trying to interrupt me writing a long e-mail gets me way more than people interrupting me while trying to fix a bug where I already "know" the issue and I'm just doing the cleanup/test writing. I am being too glib. But the sort of "focus broken, can't move forward" feeling is something I constantly have felt in many non-programming tas…

Okay, this is fair.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#268

Post by mtrower »

barbariangrunge wrote: post #219
mtrower wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel in turn that this comment is the dismissive one, and in fact extremely so. The issue is not that programmers need to focus, is that they need to focus on deep, complex work. At least a few of those other tasks you mention (don’t have much experience with sales copy, and in rather terrible with both sales and copy) do require focus but have smaller reasonable increments of progress. Stop thinking about the work…

I write and program. Writing is harder and takes longer to get back into

Are you sure this isn’t because you have more talent/competence for programming than writing? Or that you haven’t set the bars differently?

Writing is a daunting task for me, but that has more to do with my own talents and experience than anything. Not implying anything about yours, just something to consider.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#269

Post by mtrower »

kingboss wrote: post #248
mtrower wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel in turn that this comment is the dismissive one, and in fact extremely so. The issue is not that programmers need to focus, is that they need to focus on deep, complex work. At least a few of those other tasks you mention (don’t have much experience with sales copy, and in rather terrible with both sales and copy) do require focus but have smaller reasonable increments of progress. Stop thinking about the work…

Most programmers are just code plumbers. It's not like most of you are some research scientists breaking into the unknown. In fact for most jobs I've held programming has been by far the easiest part of the job. Understanding the 'real' requirements from the client (not what they think they want but what they actually want) and many other things are on a completely different level of complexity. Computers are the mos…

And then we wonder why our software can’t run acceptably on multi ghz processors.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#270

Post by urthor »

inciampati wrote: post #37
omnicognate wrote: post #23

I actively like being distracted when I'm programming. I tend to approach a problem from lots of different directions, each time fizzling out, hitting a block or having some sort of mental reset, until something unconsciously clicks and an overall structure, understanding or solution emerges. Continually leaving and returning to the problem is a part of that process, so I tend to find someone walking up with a questi…

Indeed, this seems unusual in programmer land. As evidence we have a thread like the current one reaching the front page several times a day. But your way is also my way. I am active in a very wide array of topics, and happy to flit between them. Sometimes I dive deep, but it's usually in a critical moment of synthesis when ideas developed over months or years come to clarity and I put them to action. This is working…

It's the 5 minutes in Pomodoro.

Stand up, walk away. Don't engage in a seperate source of context.

Brain dumps short term memory long term memory.

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