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Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

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Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#181

Post by oriolid »

fryry wrote: post #153
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I pretty much write off the day entirely. I think this is the mindset that a lot of people have, but always keep in mind, the meetings is part of your job, and writing code is also only one aspect of your job. What I'm trying to say is that don't let the meetings frustrate you, instead just accept them and the distractions. Few people get to do what they really want to do all the time, and it does often seem that s…

This would be a valid way of thinking about it, but programmers aren't generally judged on their meeting attendance but rather their code output. More meetings == less code == worse perceived performance == fewer opportunities for pay increases and promotions

Did someone ask for this story? https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Li...

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#182

Post by marsven_422 »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #20

Sadly, the cost of context switching is well-known, and has been proven, over and over again, for decades. But managers don't care (and many co-workers also). A quick shufti at most modern open-plan offices, shows the contempt that managers have for developer context. They know better, and have made the conscious decision to go open, anyway. I remember visiting the Facebook/Instagram building, in NYC, and was aghast…

It's not that they do not care it that they do not understand this.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#183

Post by sanitycheck »

rtpg wrote: post #161
dijit wrote: post #156

I don't remember where I read it, in a book or on HN or even if someone told it to me. But I learned that when requesting time or disruption: certain positions need specialised handling. An example: A receptionist does not necessarily need focus time, and is interrupt driven, so their work should not stretch to more than 5 minute intervals; if something takes more than 5 minutes it must be filed for someone else. A m…

I feel that this is extremely dismissive of the reality that other people do in fact have similar focus requirements, but simply have learned to take notes or otherwise deal with interruptions. There are more demand driven roles but probably every person you interface with on a day to day basis professionally has hard work to do. Sales copy? Focus. Figuring out some accounting discrepancy? Focus. Trying to actually p…

Maybe the difference between programming and most other office activities, for me at least, is that I'm very often working near the limits of my competence for long periods of time. Over the years my competence grows but my problems expand to match it.

I don't think that's at all comparable with writing sales copy or finding a venue.

Figuring out an accounting discrepancy might be harder for a junior auditor than a senior one, because competence grows but the problems remain a similar size. (Or I'm talking out of my ass, I only have second-hand knowledge of audit and I'm led to believe that the attitude of big firms is that if something is very hard to find, it's not worth finding because nobody else will find it later!)

Planning the next quarters projects tends to be a collaborative activity rather than one requiring deep individual flow state, I think.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#184

Post by danwee »

fryry wrote: post #153
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I pretty much write off the day entirely. I think this is the mindset that a lot of people have, but always keep in mind, the meetings is part of your job, and writing code is also only one aspect of your job. What I'm trying to say is that don't let the meetings frustrate you, instead just accept them and the distractions. Few people get to do what they really want to do all the time, and it does often seem that s…

This would be a valid way of thinking about it, but programmers aren't generally judged on their meeting attendance but rather their code output. More meetings == less code == worse perceived performance == fewer opportunities for pay increases and promotions

> More meetings == less code == worse perceived performance == fewer opportunities for pay increases and promotions

That's a rather junior mentality. When one is junior, yeah, usually the most one can do is moving Jira tickets to Done (which means merging code usually). But when one is senior, the pay increases and promotions come from other activities: mentoring, handling technical topics between teams (usually via meetings), etc.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#185

Post by hotpathdev »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #72
Eugr wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programmers is not the only profession that has a high cost of context switching. Scientists, lawyers, engineers, writers - pretty much anyone doing intellectual work would understand.

You forgot doctors and nurses.

Now let's look back at the list provided: -Scientists -lawyers -engineers -artists -doctors -nurses

And compare it to programmers and writers. The non-programmer/non-writer world think programmers "just play on the computer" all day. So I think GP is spot on, non-programmers don't get how interrupting flow is catastrophic to what we do.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#186

Post by mtrower »

saghm wrote: post #135
atoav wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but the point you missed was about the uninterruptedness of studying for an exam — a student might be able to dedicate a whole week to learning for an exam and then study each day with minor interruptions. That those studying session can sometimes be too long to be healthy is certainly true, but was not the point argued here. When someone argues that a Ferrari is a fast car and you criticize that not all red ca…

> Yeah, but the point you missed was about the uninterruptedness of studying for an exam — a student might be able to dedicate a whole week to learning for an exam and then study each day with minor interruptions. I don't know why you assume that I don't understand that they're saying that their studying is uninterrupted when it's overnight. That doesn't change the fact that sleep deprivation is also something that m…

Maybe because you led in with “to be fair”? Perhaps “as an aside” may have been more appropriate, to indicate an intentional context switch?

Your point is valid as a tangent, but it doesn’t read as a tangent to me - it reads as attempting to address the point you are responding to.

Just my two cents here.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#187

Post by catears »

Torkel wrote: post #177

Reading through the comments here, and in the ton of similar threads on this subject, I feel I must be such an outlier... For me there are different tasks and different days. Some days I want uninterrupted flow. But some days I feel more productive by chopping it up with a few meetings and some office trash talk. A laugh every now and then, teasing a co-worker for screaming at his code - it gives energy to me. Talkin…

I have a similar feeling. For some work I need to focus, but the "why don't we scrap this idea for one that does the same thing in 1/10 the code"-moments have mostly been in and between meetings and office chatter.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#188

Post by watwut »

earthling8118 wrote: post #86
saghm wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's pretty ironic, because this is how a lot of people study in the library at college,show up and stay all night grinding in the flow state with your phone shut off. Yet when you graduate to the work place, you seldom have the opportunity to work like how you've been training to work for all your advanced schooling ever again. To be fair, I think staying up all night trying to be productive instead of getting a g…

I think you're still missing the point. It isn't that you need to stay up all night, but rather the flow state. In college you typically have classes during the day so you aren't going to get it then. That doesn't make it a great thing but it also isn't exactly relevant to this conversation.

Even in college with classes, overnight studying is one of the least effective way of studying. And no, you don not need 6-8 hours of consecutive flow to learn anything.

Whatever the reason for celebrating overnights, effectivity of it is not it.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#189

Post by watwut »

eitland wrote: post #154
saghm wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the point they're making, but I'm not sure you understand mine though. If someone talking about weight loss suggested that people should just never eat breakfast to reduce the amount of eating they do in a given day, it would be relevant to offer a critique this may end up being counterproductive overall to the goal due to it just pushing the issue into another part of the day; this is basically the same…

> If someone talking about weight loss suggested that people should just never eat breakfast to reduce the amount of eating they do in a given day, it would be relevant to offer a critique[...] Tangential, but might be interesting to some: sometime before the pandemic, after (I think) 30 years of always eating some kind of breakfast, I accidentally missed breakfast once and that day I felt I had significantly less br…

When I do not eat breakfast, I am unable to focus on work. It does not matter when I am in dysfunctional team (so I was actually not eating breakfast), but the moment I needed to produce, I had to eat.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#190

Post by _448 »

I remember reading an article long time ago, written by an engineer in India. He became famous in India(or at least in my city, Pune, where he lived) for reverse engineering Windows NT. He along with his friends later on wrote the book "Undocumented Windows NT". He was promptly hired by Microsoft, and moved to the US. He later wrote an article on his experience working for Microsoft. One thing I vividly remember from that article was his experience the very first day at work. He observed that every engineer had a separate room. He was not used to this luxury. He was awed. During the day, he had a question on some aspect of the project he was assigned, and he immediately went to the next room where one of his colleagues was working. His colleague instead frowned and asked him to first send a meeting request, and then he will alot him a time. This surprised the new employee. He was not used to this way of "team work". He went back and sent a formal request and later there was a meeting to resolve the project issue.

Afterwards, he enquired why engineers were kept separate in their own rooms? And why does one have to be so formal in requesting a meeting even to discuss project issues? It takes lot of time to resolve issues. Why this inefficiency? And the reply he got was, engineers when they are working, they get into a zone. It is very difficult to get into a zone, but very easy to get out of it even with a slightest distraction or interruption. Hence Microsoft provides separate rooms for engineers and meetings are available only when the engineer is free.

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