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Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

economist.com

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Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#361

Post by jnsaff2 »

gdy wrote: post #360
jnsaff2 wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suggest you read Budapest Memorandum [0]. After russia blatantly violated its commitments from there any pointing out to Minsk is just idiotic. Any violation of Ukrainian internationally recognized borders has been highly illegal and no matter how much whitewashing you want to do you are shilling for genocide. Also you will remove any claim that it was putins war after Ukraine has won. Pointing out random events 9…

"Pointing out random events 9 years ago somehow justifies mass murder" You are confused. You claimed that the sole reason of the war in 2014 was Russian meddling and I suggested you read how the events really unfolded. It's still not too late to do just that.

How cute that a russian justifying russian war of aggression and genocide is gaslighting others with statements like "You are confused".

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#362

Post by medo-bear »

jnsaff2 wrote: post #361
gdy wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Pointing out random events 9 years ago somehow justifies mass murder" You are confused. You claimed that the sole reason of the war in 2014 was Russian meddling and I suggested you read how the events really unfolded. It's still not too late to do just that.

How cute that a russian justifying russian war of aggression and genocide is gaslighting others with statements like "You are confused".

but you are confused. ukranian nationalists broke international law first. not only that but one of the first things the nationalists did after illegaly overthrowing an elected government was tell russia they were not going to be paying any outstanding debts. their policies only brought about what the whole world knew was gonna happen. never mind the feigned shock in the media. even my grandmother on the other side of europe knew what was gonna happen. the us egged them on to piss russia off. the eu told them to stay put. the us told ukranian nationalists infamously to "fuck the eu". its all common knowledge

the people in the eu largely support ukraine because they dislike russia. but no one sees them as our freedom fighters. lol. everyone knows the us is behind it and when living standards accross europe deteriorate people will lose patience with both the ukraine and the us

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#363

Post by medo-bear »

jnsaff2 wrote: post #359
medo-bear wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its not that simple. ukranian nationalists overthrew an elected, internationally recognised government and as a consequence eastern ukranians revolted. its not very clear that budapest memorandum was violated at that point. no ammount of russia bashing can clarify that

"After the annexation of Crimea by Russia in 2014, Canada,[25] France, Germany, Italy, Japan,[26] the UK,[27] and US[28][29] stated that Russian involvement was a breach of its Budapest Memorandum obligations to Ukraine and in violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity." Whats not clear about that?

for one, their authority and capacity to objectively judge. for two, their hypocricy

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#364

Post by medo-bear »

koonsolo wrote: post #356
medo-bear wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's see where Ukraine is in 5 years and where Russia will be given the disastrous policies of the ukranian government, in 5 years it would not surprise me if ukraine is divided between russia and poland. im sure the poles would love that too > Your mentality fits nicely in russian society. i think my mentality fits pretty nicely with that of southern Europe, where i live. i also happen to think that polish ukrani…

> southern Europe, where i live Let me guess... you're antivax?

nope. whats that have to do with southern europe

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#365

Post by jnsaff2 »

medo-bear wrote: post #362
jnsaff2 wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How cute that a russian justifying russian war of aggression and genocide is gaslighting others with statements like "You are confused".

but you are confused. ukranian nationalists broke international law first. not only that but one of the first things the nationalists did after illegaly overthrowing an elected government was tell russia they were not going to be paying any outstanding debts. their policies only brought about what the whole world knew was gonna happen. never mind the feigned shock in the media. even my grandmother on the other side o…

You have drunk the Kremlin propaganda really hard to think like that.

You think in one thread that russia had the best revolution in the history and in an another you call Ukrainian revolution illegal.

Also even if you don’t like that another country shakes lose of autocrat cronies, how does any of that justify tanks and bombs and Bucha?

Your thinking is comparable to a common thug: you were speeding, therefore I can kill all your relatives, rape your wife and kids.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#366

Post by medo-bear »

jnsaff2 wrote: post #365
medo-bear wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but you are confused. ukranian nationalists broke international law first. not only that but one of the first things the nationalists did after illegaly overthrowing an elected government was tell russia they were not going to be paying any outstanding debts. their policies only brought about what the whole world knew was gonna happen. never mind the feigned shock in the media. even my grandmother on the other side o…

You have drunk the Kremlin propaganda really hard to think like that. You think in one thread that russia had the best revolution in the history and in an another you call Ukrainian revolution illegal. Also even if you don’t like that another country shakes lose of autocrat cronies, how does any of that justify tanks and bombs and Bucha? Your thinking is comparable to a common thug: you were speeding, therefore I can…

i think you are incapable of having a civilized conversation

read about the russian civil war for a historical lesson about what can happen when there is a revolution. not just the russian civil war, but the ukranian civil war that followed the bolshevik revolution, as well as the heroic ukranian figures like Nestor Makhno and other noble ukranians that faught for a free and independent ukraine. but for some reason the ukranian nationalists in charge today glorify the nazi Stepan Bandera and made themselves and ukraine a vassal of us imperial ambitions. this is not the ukraine i want to support

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#367

Post by gdy »

jnsaff2 wrote: post #361
gdy wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Pointing out random events 9 years ago somehow justifies mass murder" You are confused. You claimed that the sole reason of the war in 2014 was Russian meddling and I suggested you read how the events really unfolded. It's still not too late to do just that.

How cute that a russian justifying russian war of aggression and genocide is gaslighting others with statements like "You are confused".

I don't see how giving a link to an article in the English language Wikipedia and suggesting you read it can be classified as gaslighting.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#368

Post by atemerev »

gdy wrote: post #341
atemerev wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure (I am Russian, emigrated in 2005, never been in Russia since 2014). Here are some of the actual reasons: 1) Immigration is hard. Particularly when you are not from a well-developed country with a powerful passport. You will live on a borrowed time, where the host country will invent reasons to deport you (to Russia, of course, where you most probably will be jailed in no time). I live in Switzerland for 18 years…

"(to Russia, of course, where you most probably will be jailed in no time)" Only if you publicly protest against the war. "and you can’t go out" Really? Lots of opposition figures emigrated from Russia since the war started.

They did, because either they didn’t have criminal charges against them yet, or were smuggled out of the country illegally.

If you have criminal charges against you in Russia, you can’t get out. And at this point you can be sentenced to 5 years for “discriminating the army” if you write publicly in a social network that you are against war or that there were war crimes. Many people who did are already in jail, others will be detained if they attempt border crossing.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#369

Post by gdy »

atemerev wrote: post #368
gdy wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"(to Russia, of course, where you most probably will be jailed in no time)" Only if you publicly protest against the war. "and you can’t go out" Really? Lots of opposition figures emigrated from Russia since the war started.

They did, because either they didn’t have criminal charges against them yet, or were smuggled out of the country illegally. If you have criminal charges against you in Russia, you can’t get out. And at this point you can be sentenced to 5 years for “discriminating the army” if you write publicly in a social network that you are against war or that there were war crimes. Many people who did are already in jail, others…

You'd first get administrative charges and a fine. Sometimes you can even fight off the fine in the court -- I personally know someone who did.

After that you either shut up or leave the country, which of course is very bad.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#370

Post by iavael »

scottLobster wrote: post #316
medo-bear wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i just love reminding americans that the high pedistal they immagine they sit on when they lecture everyone is actually just a kitsch pigsty

So long as you acknowledge that our current pigsty is much cleaner than Russia's. The best you can point to is genocides and atrocities we committed 170 years ago, whereas Russia is attempting to commit similar genocides as we speak. And it's not the first time the Russians have committed genocide against Ukrainians. I guess when your nation doesn't change that much in 100 years it's hard to understand that other nat…

If you are referencing Holodomor, then it was not targeted at Ukraine. Yes Ukraine was hit hard by it, having half of total death toll from communist-induced famine. But other half were also Russians and Kazakhs. Bolsheviks while not being shy about ethnic-based genocide didn't really care about ethnicity of victims at that case.
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