Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children • Hacker News Board

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#261

Post by mistermann » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 3:32 PM UTC

woodruffw wrote: post #239

mistermann wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a category error: you're comparing US propaganda (a think the US government did and still does) with an article from a UK-based magazine that's mostly known for economics analysis. When you say "comparing", are you saying that an assertion of equality has been made? No such assertion exists in the text you are responding to. And if one is simply comparing and contrasting similar things but making no claim o…

Equality or not; the comment is about something the US government does when the article is written by a non-government in not-the-US.

Perhaps...but this does not answer my questions, but rather dodges them.

Are you willing to answer the questions I have posed to you regarding your claim of a category error?

It is perhaps also worth explicitly acknowledging the fact that the US government (via its various agencies and employees, stationed around the globe) is a rather influential organization.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#262

Post by FpUser » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 3:34 PM UTC

bpodgursky wrote: post #172

scottLobster wrote: post #129

Russians have never had any real individual rights. Throughout their history the common people have just been resources enslaved to brutal overlords. The Soviets were perhaps somewhat softer overlords on average, but the principle remains. The state will dispose of disobedient people the same way it would dispose of rotten potatoes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ZqBLcIvw0

> The Soviets were perhaps somewhat softer overlords on average Most Russians in the Tzarist Russian empire could go years or decades without being actively oppressed — people out in rural villages could at least survive through benign neglect. There was no benign neglect in the soviet union. You were a gear in the system and if you failed to fill that part, you were liquidated or sent to a prison camp.

>"if you failed to fill that part, you were liquidated or sent to a prison camp."

I grew up in USSR. If you take late 70s and 80s (do not know how it was before) you would have to very actively open your mouth and be a dissident if you wanted to end up in prison camp even though it did not guarantee it. I left in 91 so have no idea how it later progressed from nearly absolute freedom at that time to what Russia has now with this maniac in power.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#263

Post by 331c8c71 » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 3:35 PM UTC

VincentEvans wrote: post #248

331c8c71 wrote: post #137

I don't think he's an immediate threat to society or his daughter and hence don't support the imprisonment. The portrait painted by the Economist is, however, incomplete. I guess because the details are not pretty. Mr. Moskalyov was convicted three times before this trial (but haven't served any jail time): - in 1984 for theft - in 2004 for (illegal) imprisonment without kidnapping - in 2008 for violating production/…

You seem to have a lot of facts handy - do you also happen to have an english translation of the letter his daughter sent to him that you can post here? Just to balance out 20 years old mud.

That's quite an accurate tranlation: https://metro.co.uk/2023/03/30/russian-girls-letter-sent-to-...

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#264

Post by Bayart » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 3:40 PM UTC

5e92cb50239222b wrote: post #155

Bayart wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In fact, Russia made record profits last year. There was a lag between the jumps in prices and the move towards other sources than Russia. Russia is going to have massive budget issues from this year onwards. Saying that Europe is still a massive buyer of Russia gas and oil is simply false.

If by "other sources" you mean Latvia, India, and the like, then sure. Maybe you would like to know who that oil and gas is really coming from (or maybe not if you want to sleep well at night — that what others have been doing). I've read enough of this bullshit about Putin supposedly being out of rockets, Russian economy supposedly collapsing in a couple of weeks, etc, to not believe any word of it. And I really hop…

On top of increased capacity from Algeria, Norway etc., a lot of it just comes from the US.

On the effects of Western sanctions and the like, Perun did a very complete sum-up three weeks ago : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmO1kfCr_II

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#265

Post by varjag » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 3:42 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #247

varjag wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a popular opinion certainly that I've heard many times. Russian official support was essential in convincing local LE to commit to the government and squash the protests. But when you look at the ratio of Russian forces to Belarusian within the country at the moment it's hardly an occupation. The reason I'm uncomfortable with this narrative though is it denies Lukashenka's part in this. All Belarusians are aware…

What really got me is that he seems to genuinely believe that the protests are driven from the West rather than that the local populace is fed up with him and wants him gone. It is as if he can't believe the evidence right in front of him. Belarus could have been economically roughly where Poland or Lithuania are today. Such a pity.

Yep, no doubt he somehow believes the West "stole" "his" people. Poisoned the sheep so to say, who now have to be mercilessly culled.

And the country certainly could have been entirely another place. Yet he's ultimately our people's creation, who voted him in democratically 29 years ago on an authoritarian leaning, populist platform. Now we're paying for the ultimate sin of not giving a fuck.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#266

Post by 331c8c71 » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 3:48 PM UTC

SXX wrote: post #180

331c8c71 wrote: post #137

I don't think he's an immediate threat to society or his daughter and hence don't support the imprisonment. The portrait painted by the Economist is, however, incomplete. I guess because the details are not pretty. Mr. Moskalyov was convicted three times before this trial (but haven't served any jail time): - in 1984 for theft - in 2004 for (illegal) imprisonment without kidnapping - in 2008 for violating production/…

Do you really think it's important what he did 20 years ago? Half of Russia population don't pay taxes and occasionally have no money to cover their utility bills. Most people outside of Moscow only earn $300-500 / month. Also do you reallt think it's a good idea to pay taxes in Russia at this moment? All these taxes gonna be used to kill children in Ukraine.

> Do you really think it's important what he did 20 years ago

To the extent it might have influenced the ruling...

> Half of Russia population don't pay taxes and occasionally have no money to cover their utility bills. Most people outside of Moscow only earn $300-500 / month.

50% would be an overstatement. It's normally deducted directly by the employer regardless of the salary so you don't see that money to start with (and typically negotiate/agree on your net salary).

People who don't pay utilities eventually get disconnected from electricity/gas etc.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#267

Post by danaris » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 3:54 PM UTC

petertodd wrote: post #199

cafard wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have the nostalgists on the left who remember Mother Russia as they imagined it. You have some on the right who favor Russia for some mix of liking the traditional values thing that Putin puts out, resenting implications that Trump was in his pocket, disliking the Ukraine for its connection with the first impeachment, and I don't know what all.

Ironically the false idea that Russia had so much control over US politics is itself pro-Russian propaganda that presents Russia as much more powerful than it actually is. The truth is Russia is a failing country with a crummy military whose main real power stems from being able to threaten the world with nuclear weapons. If not for that, the West probably would have sent troops to Ukraine in 2014 and the Russian inv…

The recent effect Russia had on US politics was an ability to tip a crucial few (relatively speaking) on the fence to either support Trump or sit out entirely in 2016. The existence of a significant Russian propaganda troll operation around that time is well-documented by independent sources.

This doesn't require a highly sophisticated operation, merely an understanding of some talking points that can plant doubt into the minds of Americans—things like "if Bernie loses the primary, we should vote Trump/sit out in the general", or, more insidiously, "voting is meaningless; the two parties are the same".

It's certainly true that it's dangerous to believe Russia has some kind of remote control that can make American politics do whatever they want, but it's also dangerous to believe that they have no effective propaganda arm.

Edit to add: To be clear, I'm not trying to claim that Russian propaganda was the deciding factor in the 2016 election—merely that it was a factor, and discounting it is unhelpful.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#268

Post by 331c8c71 » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 3:55 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #183

331c8c71 wrote: post #137

I don't think he's an immediate threat to society or his daughter and hence don't support the imprisonment. The portrait painted by the Economist is, however, incomplete. I guess because the details are not pretty. Mr. Moskalyov was convicted three times before this trial (but haven't served any jail time): - in 1984 for theft - in 2004 for (illegal) imprisonment without kidnapping - in 2008 for violating production/…

First, what's your source for this claim? Russia's propaganda arm is massive and working 24/7, so you can't go spouting off claims like this without telling us where you're getting your information. We need to be able to vet your source. Second, given that we're talking about Russia's justice system, I wouldn't really care if this were true! Being convicted of a crime in Russia isn't proof you did it—it's just proof…

https://memopzk.org/figurant/moskalyov-aleksej-vladimirovich...

https://m.newstula.ru/fn_1307328.html

The first one is from a widely known human rights advocacy group Memorial (which has tensions with the state). The second is a regional newspaper of sorts (hence state-controlled give or take).

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#269

Post by martincmartin » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 3:57 PM UTC

anovikov wrote: post #90

martincmartin wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The barrier to outsiders invading and fixing it is nuclear weapons. If the west's troops invaded Russian, it's quite possible Russia would launch nukes. Even without that, the West doesn't want to put boots on the ground in Russia, fearing it will end up like Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc. The barrier to Russians forming a coup is state repression. The FSB is good at routing out any coup before it can get far. Unless the…

It only depends on political will. Airtight isolation will be enough to solve Russia, let's say. On the level that "whoever has any diplomatic or trade relationship with Russia or does not accept the same policy, can't trade with anyone in the West", this policy will take days to "infect" entire world. Not being able to trade they will quickly descend to starvation, rampant disease and death. Then we can take refugee…

Doesn't work with North Korea, Venezuela or lots of other dictatorships around the world.

Regime change is hard. Creating a functioning, not corrupt state in the aftermath is harder.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#270

Post by esarbe » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 3:57 PM UTC

Jetrel wrote: post #97

esarbe wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putin has had high approval ratings for years. Not only because they clamped down on any opposition, but also because Russians simply don't care. This is not just a "Putin" problem.

He notably took credit for ending the lawlessness of the 90s, which was really bad . Russia went through a couple of years of being an outright "failed state", with basically no police operating in much of the country, and rampant gang violence, extortion, and lots of people wondering how they were going to survive, let alone put food on the table. Putin played the classic "tough on crime" authoritarian tack, except…

That, and that he was able to slip into office as Yeltsin's chosen successor without acquiring the 'stink' of Yeltsin.

And potentially some domestic-terror false flag operations, who knows.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings