Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children • Hacker News Board

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#171

Post by alkonaut » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 2:10 PM UTC

mfer wrote: post #150

scottLobster wrote: post #129

Russians have never had any real individual rights. Throughout their history the common people have just been resources enslaved to brutal overlords. The Soviets were perhaps somewhat softer overlords on average, but the principle remains. The state will dispose of disobedient people the same way it would dispose of rotten potatoes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ZqBLcIvw0

> Russians have never had any real individual rights. To take a step back and think about things (not that I'm suggesting what I think)... in most places for most of history it's been about the group. The collective. Being heavily individualized is a modern and western thing. So, why is one way right and another way wrong? Note, I do not agree with what's going on with Russia. I'm simply bringing up the higher level…

> So, why is one way right and another way wrong?

There are conventions. That countries agree to uphold. In this case not upholding them is the "wrong" way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_th...

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#172

Post by bpodgursky » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 2:10 PM UTC

scottLobster wrote: post #129

Russians have never had any real individual rights. Throughout their history the common people have just been resources enslaved to brutal overlords. The Soviets were perhaps somewhat softer overlords on average, but the principle remains. The state will dispose of disobedient people the same way it would dispose of rotten potatoes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ZqBLcIvw0

> The Soviets were perhaps somewhat softer overlords on average

Most Russians in the Tzarist Russian empire could go years or decades without being actively oppressed — people out in rural villages could at least survive through benign neglect.

There was no benign neglect in the soviet union. You were a gear in the system and if you failed to fill that part, you were liquidated or sent to a prison camp.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#173

Post by medo-bear » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 2:10 PM UTC

jnsaff2 wrote: post #152

medo-bear wrote: post #130

this is absolutely terrible. this is a sure way for russia to create a modern version of the stolen generation [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

Sure is terrible, just weird that russians themselves just take it and don't stand up.

um they did, in 1917, like no one else, ever. too bad the whole thing took a wrong turn a decade later

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#174

Post by cafard » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 2:10 PM UTC

iso1631 wrote: post #96

ourmandave wrote: post #45

They've already yoinked hundreds of Ukraine children from families, so why not? Embrace the fuckery and continue the war crimes on your own citizens.

It seems that support for Ukraine is one aspect that crosses demographics here in the UK, Left and Right, Young and Old, Leave and Remain, all fully oppose Russia and broadly support the efforts the UK and the west in general have done. It seems to be that a significant number of people in America seem to support the Russian narrative.

You have the nostalgists on the left who remember Mother Russia as they imagined it. You have some on the right who favor Russia for some mix of liking the traditional values thing that Putin puts out, resenting implications that Trump was in his pocket, disliking the Ukraine for its connection with the first impeachment, and I don't know what all.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#175

Post by meijer » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 2:11 PM UTC

mfer wrote: post #150

scottLobster wrote: post #129

Russians have never had any real individual rights. Throughout their history the common people have just been resources enslaved to brutal overlords. The Soviets were perhaps somewhat softer overlords on average, but the principle remains. The state will dispose of disobedient people the same way it would dispose of rotten potatoes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ZqBLcIvw0

> Russians have never had any real individual rights. To take a step back and think about things (not that I'm suggesting what I think)... in most places for most of history it's been about the group. The collective. Being heavily individualized is a modern and western thing. So, why is one way right and another way wrong? Note, I do not agree with what's going on with Russia. I'm simply bringing up the higher level…

I don't think respect for basic humans rights and heavy individualization are necessarily related. They should be discussed separately.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#176

Post by petertodd » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 2:12 PM UTC

iso1631 wrote: post #96

ourmandave wrote: post #45

They've already yoinked hundreds of Ukraine children from families, so why not? Embrace the fuckery and continue the war crimes on your own citizens.

It seems that support for Ukraine is one aspect that crosses demographics here in the UK, Left and Right, Young and Old, Leave and Remain, all fully oppose Russia and broadly support the efforts the UK and the west in general have done. It seems to be that a significant number of people in America seem to support the Russian narrative.

Ever seen the belligerents list in the first Gulf War? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War

It was basically the entire world against Iraq. Even countries like Afghanistan and Sierra Leone contributed to the coalition forces against Iraq, because invading your neighbors to steal resources is frowned upon by essentially everyone.

The only reason this hasn't happened again with Russia is because Russia has nukes to threaten the world with, and cheap oil and gas to sell. And even then, mutually assured destruction greatly diminishes that nuclear threat.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#177

Post by mikeyouse » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 2:12 PM UTC

jnsaff2 wrote: post #152

medo-bear wrote: post #130

this is absolutely terrible. this is a sure way for russia to create a modern version of the stolen generation [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

Sure is terrible, just weird that russians themselves just take it and don't stand up.

There have been many internal reform attempts in Russia, almost universally the leaders of each have been assassinated or imprisoned. It’s a very dangerous place to protest, especially now that they’ve invaded Ukraine and legalized mobilization.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#178

Post by mfer » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 2:12 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #171

mfer wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russians have never had any real individual rights. To take a step back and think about things (not that I'm suggesting what I think)... in most places for most of history it's been about the group. The collective. Being heavily individualized is a modern and western thing. So, why is one way right and another way wrong? Note, I do not agree with what's going on with Russia. I'm simply bringing up the higher level…

> So, why is one way right and another way wrong? There are conventions. That countries agree to uphold. In this case not upholding them is the "wrong" way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_th...

So side stepped the context of my question (group vs individual) and answered to the context of the parent.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#179

Post by flanked-evergl » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 2:12 PM UTC

sgt wrote: post #157

atemerev wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure (I am Russian, emigrated in 2005, never been in Russia since 2014). Here are some of the actual reasons: 1) Immigration is hard. Particularly when you are not from a well-developed country with a powerful passport. You will live on a borrowed time, where the host country will invent reasons to deport you (to Russia, of course, where you most probably will be jailed in no time). I live in Switzerland for 18 years…

What happens if you marry a Swiss chick, will they give you citizenship or did they plug that hole as well?

> Swiss chick

You get you are talking about another person, right? Not some object to be used for selfish aims?

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#180

Post by SXX » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 2:13 PM UTC

331c8c71 wrote: post #137

I don't think he's an immediate threat to society or his daughter and hence don't support the imprisonment. The portrait painted by the Economist is, however, incomplete. I guess because the details are not pretty. Mr. Moskalyov was convicted three times before this trial (but haven't served any jail time): - in 1984 for theft - in 2004 for (illegal) imprisonment without kidnapping - in 2008 for violating production/…

Do you really think it's important what he did 20 years ago?

Half of Russia population don't pay taxes and occasionally have no money to cover their utility bills. Most people outside of Moscow only earn $300-500 / month.

Also do you reallt think it's a good idea to pay taxes in Russia at this moment? All these taxes gonna be used to kill children in Ukraine.