Even if Google doesn't start to charge high fees once the others are driven out of business, it would still be bad for the industry. Since no one can compete with Google's deep pockets, they have a monopoly on any improvements, changes. The barriers to entry are high; raw mapping of large land areas is hugely expensive and complicated. So the industry would shrivel as a result.
France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition
111–120 of 160 posts
Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
Predatory pricing does exist, but several conditions have to be true of the commodity being priced. It must be a rival good, it's production has to have high-barriers to entry and it cannot have easy substitutes. In the case of online maps, none of those is true. Which is why so many HN readers are surprised by this.
Actually all 3 of those are true. I don't know exactly what this company's product is, but if they offer an API for creating maps on a website it would be a rival product. Next, the barrier to entry for online mapping is huge. The raw data to generate and create maps is not easy to collect. Especially for satellite images and topo data. And then there's the infrastructure required to actually process and serve the da…
I think you misunderstand the economic meaning of "rival good":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivalry_(economics)
Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
That doesn't matter. There is no law nor any court ruling even in France against providing free services. Here is the entire key to the issue: >Bottin Cartographes argued that Google was only planning to give away the service for free until all the competitors had been driven out of business and then they would start charging. It's not about free services, it's about willfully plotting to gain marketshare via free se…
How did they prove that Google was plotting that scheme?
I have no idea. Like I mentioned, I'd like to see the proof before I believe Google was planning this. Obviously it was enough to convince the courts, but I know courts can be deceived and biased (especially when it's local companies vs foreign companies).
Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition
#114So what does this mean for openstreetmap.org
Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition
#115Thomas Sowell gives a nice introduction on predatory pricing here: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1999/0503/6309089a.html From Sowell's article: It is a commentary on the development of antitrust law that the accused must defend himself, not against actual evidence of wrongdoing, but against a theory which predicts wrongdoing in the future. It is the civil equivalent of "preventive detention" in criminal cases -- punis…
Your equivalent is, imho, incorrect. See it that way, when does predatory begins? As a matter of Fact Google Maps is already the biggest on the market with a price next to 0 for users. If we would compare it to something in real life it would: "Somebody has given to a group of people a serious death threat". Then in that case you'd need a punishment. Anyway, I read some of the comments on this story and I believe tak…
France is well known for being protectionist however, when it's a foreign firm competing with local firms regardless of the terms. I expect protectionism like this is probably timed around the upcoming election, which will feature several candidates who are anti-globalization and/or protectionist.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/19/business/global/19inside.h...
http://www.windpowermonthly.com/news/1080479/Tender-will-fav...
Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition
#116Reporter totally misses the point. The point is that google provided google maps for free. That is great. except when all other competition dies (because who can compete with a better, freer version of your product?) google starts charging pretty rediculous rates. That move in itself is what contributed to the ruling. OSM is free for everyone. It is a wiki. If OSM destroys google, bing, etc, and then decides to go on…
Google maps includes sponsored locations when you search for things on the map.
Are we going to also prosecute Google for providing free web search, making it impossible to make a competing search engine that charges users 10 Euro cents per query?
Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually all 3 of those are true. I don't know exactly what this company's product is, but if they offer an API for creating maps on a website it would be a rival product. Next, the barrier to entry for online mapping is huge. The raw data to generate and create maps is not easy to collect. Especially for satellite images and topo data. And then there's the infrastructure required to actually process and serve the da…
I think you misunderstand the economic meaning of "rival good": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivalry_(economics)
True, but API's use hardware that has actual costs so it is a "rival good". For example, GPL code is a non "rival good" in that someone running it on their own hardware costs nothing, a download service that provides GPL code is a "rival good" in that a finite number of people can use it at one time.
Now if Google hosted their map's as a torrent and said, use this for whatever you want. That would be close enough that calling it a non rival good would be a reasonable defense. But, they do charge some customers for using their API which right or wrong opens them up to predatory pricing laws.
Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition
#118How come we assume that Google is going to start charging as soon as competitors died? I draw analogies with the IE vs Netscape history. When IE became bundled for free in Windows, Netscape open-sourced its code to survive. Where would the browser be today had a judge ruled that Microsoft cannot do this and that Microsoft (and Netscape) should continue charging for their product?
When IE was bundled into Windows for free Netscape sued in federal court, and won. The DOJ intervened and lessened the impact of the ruling.
Meanwhile, Netscape died. They got bought by AOL and they open-sourced their code as a consequence of dying and becoming mostly a disembodied brand, not as an attempt to survive.
Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not just about prices. It was only about prices, then there would be McDonalds everywhere and nothing else. If farmers were to open their own stores, they could still manage to have reasonable prices, and make their point on "best quality", "organic food", plus offering some plants / species you would never be able to find in a big supermarket. You can't go head to head against Carrefour by just providing the sa…
You do realise you're actually arguing against your own point 2 up? You said the reason the small traders went out of business is price, but now they suddenly shouldn't differentiate on price? You don't really seem to understand monopolies or free markets or how they operate. 1. Monopoly emerges 2. Competitor opens 3. Monopoly slashes prices in local store, while maintaing prices in all others 4. Competitor runs out…
"That's how it works. You can also replace 3 with 'Monopoly slashes prices everywhere and relies on its cash reserves'."
So are we going to have laws now where big companies can't lower and raise their prices?
If you want to blame anyone, blame the consumers that only shop for the lowest price. Walmart is a good example of this in the US.
The other problem is that as a small business, you just don't have the resources as the big guys. For example, you might order 1000 widgets from a supplier for $10,000, but because your competitor orders 100,000, they can get a bulk discount and charge a lower price.
Unless we have laws that prevent a business from getting to a certain size and keeping them all small (which I am against), there isn't any way to stop the above scenario.
Similar to how software, music, and movie companies need to change their business model, so do small companies. With globalization becoming easier and easier, they need to offer something that the big guys can't.
Trying to compete on price will only put you out of business quickly
Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition
#120Reporter totally misses the point. The point is that google provided google maps for free. That is great. except when all other competition dies (because who can compete with a better, freer version of your product?) google starts charging pretty rediculous rates. That move in itself is what contributed to the ruling. OSM is free for everyone. It is a wiki. If OSM destroys google, bing, etc, and then decides to go on…
Google maps includes sponsored locations when you search for things on the map. Are we going to also prosecute Google for providing free web search, making it impossible to make a competing search engine that charges users 10 Euro cents per query?
You've missed the point entirely. If Google provided free web search, killing off all commercial competitors, and then started charging fees for searches now that all competitors are dead, then yes, they would probably be prosecuted.
If GMaps had remained free this whole shebang might have been avoided.