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France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

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Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#81

Post by hessenwolf »

lloeki wrote: post #28
yanw wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't they start charging because they started getting sued for offering it free of charge? And according to other reports it's apparently illegal in France to offer something for free if it costs money to develop. But what about those who enjoyed using the free stuff and even built businesses on top of it?

The law says it's forbidden to sell something at a loss. While it's straightforward to evaluate when you resell a physical good as-is, it's quite more shady when you do some transformation (maybe at least the sum of its components?) and outright undefinable for intangible goods, let alone a service. That's the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law is to prevent undercutting your competitors to death. I bet all…

I think this comment should be somewhere at the top. There was a similar law for a long time in Ireland, precisely to prevent companies with a large capital base from pricing their competition out of the market and then raisin their prices afterwards. If this is the reason they were sued, then it's not as big a deal as I thought from the headline.

Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#82

Post by eldude »

The people this is going to hurt the most are the citizens and businesses in France. No company or entrepreneur is going to want to setup shop in a country where success is punished. No creator, achiever or pursuer of excellence will desire to go to France if they risk being sued the moment they become successful enough to be worth it. Argue all you want that this is about "monopolies" and "anti-competitive" behavior, but what this is really about is greed. The greed of Bottin Cartographes, jealous of Google's success, using a government that doesn't respect private property rights to steal from another. This is reprehensible behavior on behalf of the government, its people, and anyone here who defends it.

If the only differentiating factor between the "monopoly" and a local business is price, the "monopoly" is going to win every time, and this is in fact a _good_ thing and best for everyone as it rewards successful business models. The "monopoly" didn't become successful because it was handed to them, it had to compete and earn it, and now it's enjoying the fruits of its labor. If on the other hand it did not earn its position, but instead lobbied or procured favors from government officials, then it deserves to be shut down, broken up, etc... as this is what's known in a free market as corruption.

Competition does not die in the face of a stronger competitor. Competition dies when rewards are removed and you take away the purpose for competing. Reward inferior products and call it justice, and you'll get more of the same.

Ask yourself this; If this were to happen in Silicon Valley, would Silicon Valley as we know it continue to exist? Doubtful.

Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#83

Post by pavel_lishin »

babarock wrote: post #47

How come we assume that Google is going to start charging as soon as competitors died? I draw analogies with the IE vs Netscape history. When IE became bundled for free in Windows, Netscape open-sourced its code to survive. Where would the browser be today had a judge ruled that Microsoft cannot do this and that Microsoft (and Netscape) should continue charging for their product?

> How come we assume that Google is going to start charging as soon as competitors died?

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, I suppose.

Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#84

Post by toyg »

dlikhten wrote: post #5

Reporter totally misses the point. The point is that google provided google maps for free. That is great. except when all other competition dies (because who can compete with a better, freer version of your product?) google starts charging pretty rediculous rates. That move in itself is what contributed to the ruling. OSM is free for everyone. It is a wiki. If OSM destroys google, bing, etc, and then decides to go on…

So the answer to a monopolist commoditizing a market is... to introduce a cartel? Because this is basically what this judgement argues: Google should charge something in line to what its competitors do, and forget about any downward pressure on prices.

I'm not a free-market zealot, but this sort of ruling is really bad for small players. Googlers understand the internet and so they make money while lowering prices for consumers, why should we punish them for this? Then we might as well say the copyright mafia is right and the internet should be tightly regulated and controlled by cartels.

Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#85

Post by te_platt »

Thomas Sowell gives a nice introduction on predatory pricing here: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1999/0503/6309089a.html

From Sowell's article: It is a commentary on the development of antitrust law that the accused must defend himself, not against actual evidence of wrongdoing, but against a theory which predicts wrongdoing in the future. It is the civil equivalent of "preventive detention" in criminal cases -- punishment without proof.

Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#86

Post by pbz »

ramblerman wrote: post #64
brudgers wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half serious comments and snark often get downvoted - particularly when they add nothing to the discussion, and almost inevitably when they are appear intended to take the discussion off track by baiting partisan disagreements or fanboyism. Downvotes should be considered editorial feedback - either you didn't make your point clearly, or your comment is considered likely to derail the discussion. Use the "edit" and "d…

He used HTML 5

Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#87

Post by adamio »

eldude wrote: post #82

The people this is going to hurt the most are the citizens and businesses in France. No company or entrepreneur is going to want to setup shop in a country where success is punished. No creator, achiever or pursuer of excellence will desire to go to France if they risk being sued the moment they become successful enough to be worth it. Argue all you want that this is about "monopolies" and "anti-competitive" behavior…

"If the only differentiating factor between the "monopoly" and a local business is price, the "monopoly" is going to win every time"

Exactly, and this is the case with commodities. This product is maps. Maps are not a commodity product like Oil. There is a value factor.

Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#88

Post by SoftwareMaven »

WayneDB wrote: post #67
mattmanser wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be able to fly. But seriously, the general consensus is that IE was a Bad Thing in the long run. Also Netscape did not open-source the code 'to survive'. Don't reinvent history.

The general consensus is not that IE was a bad thing in the long run. Perhaps nobody likes IE today, but that does not mean it's a bad thing at all. Certainly it was the impetus for Firefox being born and they introduced XmlHttpRequest. Those are important (and GOOD) things. Also, Netscape certainly did not open source their product until they were thoroughly beaten in the market, ~1998. Before that, they were still…

Netscape open sourced their browser so the browser would survive, not so they would. They were continuing to make money off their server products, but they couldn't justify the large investment in a browser anymore.

Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#89

Post by rickmb »

eldude wrote: post #82

The people this is going to hurt the most are the citizens and businesses in France. No company or entrepreneur is going to want to setup shop in a country where success is punished. No creator, achiever or pursuer of excellence will desire to go to France if they risk being sued the moment they become successful enough to be worth it. Argue all you want that this is about "monopolies" and "anti-competitive" behavior…

> Competition dies when rewards are removed

If a monopolist offers a product for free just because they have plenty of cash to do so, all rewards to compete in that market are removed. That kills competition stone dead, and that's why we have laws against it all over the world, including Silicon Valley.

Guarding the free market against monopolist abuse is standard operating procedure in all capitalist countries.

Bottin just happens to be the first to take this to court, and happened to have found a judge willing to listen. This could have happened anywhere, it just happened to be in France this time.

You may argue the court was wrong in this case, but the basic principle is part and parcel of every free market economy.

Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#90

Post by dudeguy999 »

_delirium wrote: post #19
[deleted] wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

There's no blanket prohibition on offering things for free that cost money to develop. There are free French search engines and newspapers with free websites, for example, as well as French companies that develop open-source software. A court would have to find that the free service is being cross-subsidized and offered at a loss for the purpose of driving competitors out of business, to later profit from ( http://en…

So there is no rule of law in France. You just open your business and hope for the best?
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