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Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

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Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#141

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

medo-bear wrote: post #138
red-iron-pine wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of that aggression was targeted at Eastern Europe, such as putting down uprisings in Czechoslovakia and Hungary. Which is, go figure, why Poland, the Baltics, the Czechs, etc. are so eager to support Ukraine...

it is not that clear cut. neither hungarians nor the czechs are very eager to support ukraine. same as eastern germans https://apnews.com/article/czech-ukraine-russia-government-p...

It is very clear cut. All Eastern European countries support Ukraine. In Czechia (and I believe in Slovakia) there are some groups convinced that if their countries stop support Ukraine, somehow miraculously peace will manifest. Moreover, millions of Ukrainians fled the war - it's a miracle there weren't any mass backlashes or provocations yet given the number of people that relocated and lives on foreign soil. But Ukraine has enormous support in the whole East Europe because these folks know they're next in line - they can even hear such threats from Russian TV and some politicians.

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#142

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

medo-bear wrote: post #107
mcv wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that agressive bully was much further west 30+ years ago And Putin wants all of that back. > western europe managed fine then But eastern Europe didn't manage fine, and they're the ones now pushing western Europe into putting more effort into stopping Putin. Western Europe mostly just wants to trade with Putin. This is most visible in Germany of course (technically central Europe, but the old east-west divide is su…

[flagged]

This is what I often hear on Russian TV. Their narrative is that the war was started bu Ukraine and NATO and Russia is just defending itself. It would be just ridiculous, the problem is I know some people who actually believe it.

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#143

Post by medo-bear »

mcv wrote: post #135
foverzar wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Putin intended to capture Kyiv in three days and completely failed to do that. What exactly is that assertion even based on? People talk like it is some kind of a definite fact, but there is no reference to any particular source or a universal explanation of how this was deduced.

We were alive and following the news when it happened. I'm not exactly sure what makes you doubt this. It's pretty well-reported. They fought on the outskirts of Kyiv, lost a bunch of troops and material, and eventually withdrew when they couldn't make any further progress.

> I'm not exactly sure what makes you doubt this

well for starters the fact that there is no record of him saying that

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#144

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

mcv wrote: post #76
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any discussion as to who is winning is meaningless without defining what victory means. And apparently it not only means something very different for each side, but also changes with time. Suppose Ukraine manages to push Putin's army back to original pre-2014 borders. Is this victory? With a large part of the country in ruins, a terrible GDP decrease, thousands of men with PTSD, not to mention those dead. There is si…

Loss/victory is far too simplistic to discuss the possible outcomes and their consequences. Putin seems to have painted himself into a corner where now his continued rule over Russia depends on being able to paint this as either a victory or a loss that's in no way his fault (because NATO started it and he was just defending himself). But also it seems that at the very least, he needs Crimea. For Russians in general,…

I fully agree with you. Someone suggested the only way for Ukraine is to became another Israel, focusing on external and internal security, and developing a strong arms industry so that they can protect themselves efficiently with the help of the West.

Still, it's much easier to protect oneself against Hamas' handcrafted rockets than Russian Kinzhals...

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#145

Post by medo-bear »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #142
medo-bear wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is what I often hear on Russian TV. Their narrative is that the war was started bu Ukraine and NATO and Russia is just defending itself. It would be just ridiculous, the problem is I know some people who actually believe it.

in 2008 nato said that ukraine will become part of nato. in 2014 the us supported an overthrow of a democraticaly elected ukranian government. i wonder what makes people suspicious

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#146

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #116
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any discussion as to who is winning is meaningless without defining what victory means. And apparently it not only means something very different for each side, but also changes with time. Suppose Ukraine manages to push Putin's army back to original pre-2014 borders. Is this victory? With a large part of the country in ruins, a terrible GDP decrease, thousands of men with PTSD, not to mention those dead. There is si…

Not sure why this is getting downvoted, it's a fair discussion. You can question these choices without going 'rah rah go putin!'. Ukraine may win... after 5+ years of brutal war and heavy destruction. Is that better than a life back under Moscow's rule?

If you asked me 10 years ago, I would have said hell no - you could fairly comfortably live in Russia, especially in big cities, and have more or less normal life, unless you are gay or oppose local or state institutions.

But now? They don't have any regard for human life. Not just the lives of Ukrainians, but their own. Putin is knowingly sacrificing tens of thousands for his sick ambition. There is nothing Russia gained from this war. Utter tragedy for everyone.

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#147

Post by medo-bear »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #141
medo-bear wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is not that clear cut. neither hungarians nor the czechs are very eager to support ukraine. same as eastern germans https://apnews.com/article/czech-ukraine-russia-government-p...

It is very clear cut. All Eastern European countries support Ukraine. In Czechia (and I believe in Slovakia) there are some groups convinced that if their countries stop support Ukraine, somehow miraculously peace will manifest. Moreover, millions of Ukrainians fled the war - it's a miracle there weren't any mass backlashes or provocations yet given the number of people that relocated and lives on foreign soil. But U…

okay if you say so

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#148

Post by mcv »

medo-bear wrote: post #139
mcv wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only Putin wants this war. US, UK, Poland, the Baltics and many other countries want to defend Europe against Russia. Nobody outside Russia would complain if Putin suddenly quit his war and withdrew from Ukraine.

us certainly profited nicely from this conflict. i also doubt anyone would complain if us suddenly stopped invading and bombing

How? So far, it's just costing everybody, including the US, a lot of money. What profit is there for the US in having Russia destroy entire Ukrainian cities?

If Putin thought the US profited too much from this while his own country suffered, maybe he'd stop his war. But his narrative is that the US and the entire West is suffering just as much as Russia and they'll soon give up, so victory is within sight. It's not of course; it's just bullshit to let him prolong his war for just a bit longer.

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#149

Post by mcv »

medo-bear wrote: post #145
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I often hear on Russian TV. Their narrative is that the war was started bu Ukraine and NATO and Russia is just defending itself. It would be just ridiculous, the problem is I know some people who actually believe it.

in 2008 nato said that ukraine will become part of nato. in 2014 the us supported an overthrow of a democraticaly elected ukranian government. i wonder what makes people suspicious

It was the people of Ukraine who overthrew him because he broke his election promise and moved to make Ukraine a vassal of Russia. That is absolutely the last thing the people of Ukraine want, so they had no choice but to overthrow him. I don't think the US had anything to do with it.

The only reason NATO says that some day Ukraine can become a member, is because Ukraine keeps asking about it. Constantly. They desperately want to join NATO, and while they don't and didn't meet NATO's criteria, it's not impossible that some day they will, and then they can join.

And considering the consequences of not being in NATO, I think it's clear that Ukraine is absolutely justified in wanting to join NATO. Things would look very different if they had indeed joined in 2008.

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#150

Post by mcv »

medo-bear wrote: post #143
mcv wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We were alive and following the news when it happened. I'm not exactly sure what makes you doubt this. It's pretty well-reported. They fought on the outskirts of Kyiv, lost a bunch of troops and material, and eventually withdrew when they couldn't make any further progress.

> I'm not exactly sure what makes you doubt this well for starters the fact that there is no record of him saying that

There's plenty of record of him doing it, though.
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