The day Windows died • Hacker News Board

Re: The day Windows died

#471

Post by happymellon » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 7:27 AM UTC

another_story wrote: post #443

piyush_soni wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And of course it's Linux, so there's infinite opportunity to get under the hood and tinker. - Or keep trying to fix the environment + hardware compatibility issues and not do the actual work/study. Or keep editing some random xorg.conf file because his monitor's display suddenly became weird. Or try to fix some other random files since the sound driver doesn't work. He's 10. I'm 40 and still horrified to deal with…

People always say this, but in the last half decade I've put Linux (ubuntu varieties) on multiple desktops with near 0 additional effort needed. At most I needed to install a proprietary Nvidia driver which was easily done without using terminal. I've spent far more time trying to decrapify Windows than getting Linux to work. Now laptops are a different matter.

I've installed Fedora on multiple ThinkPads and had no issues.

I had a problem with an Asus, but that's because of an Nvidia embedded GPU that wasn't even supported under Windows, so it's not like this was a Linux issue. Just get a machine that supports Linux, you wouldn't complain that you can't install MacOS on your Inspiron and even with all the hacks it doesn't work right, or that Windows is struggling to boot on your Playstation.

Re: The day Windows died

#472

Post by vladvasiliu » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 7:27 AM UTC

oblio wrote: post #450

another_story wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People always say this, but in the last half decade I've put Linux (ubuntu varieties) on multiple desktops with near 0 additional effort needed. At most I needed to install a proprietary Nvidia driver which was easily done without using terminal. I've spent far more time trying to decrapify Windows than getting Linux to work. Now laptops are a different matter.

> Now laptops are a different matter. And laptops are most client PCs sold these days, people barely buy desktops anymore: https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/global-pc-market-Q4-2021 Linux is skating where the puck has been.

Meh, my latest laptops, which are your bog-standard HP enterprise models, both worked better when new under Linux than under Windows.

One of them, AMD-based, "only" had some issue with the USB hub to which the webcam and light sensor are connected. It otherwise worked OK. On the OOB Windows install which came with the PC from the factory, the backlight couldn't go up all the day and was a horribly dim affair. It was fixed around a year later. It would also randomly hang when waking up from sleep.

The second one, a full-Intel affair, was much more of a PITA. First off, the Windows installer didn't recognize the touchpad nor track point. It still doesn't, more than a year later! Then, once installed, there was some stupid issue with the display out via the HP dock. I'd have to do a ridiculous dance of plugging in the display via both HDMI and DP and unplugging and re-plugging the DP connector at just the right time. Then, almost a year later, Intel released a new driver that actually fixed it! But then, for a while, Windows Update wouldn't have any of that, and insisted on updating the driver to the older one with the bug. Good times.

Absolutely 0 issues under Linux since day one. The only "config file fiddling" I did was actually Xorg, but that's because I insisted on remapping CAPS to Hyper and using a mac-style US layout with the win and menu keys working as level 3 shift for easier French typing. How do you even do that under windows?

Re: The day Windows died

#473

Post by deely3 » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 7:27 AM UTC

Huh, just as dozen years ago, all the same comments 'I never used Windows, and I will never use it'.

Re: The day Windows died

#474

Post by Delk » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 7:28 AM UTC

piyush_soni wrote: post #399

einr wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or keep trying to fix the environment + hardware compatibility issues and not work on the actual study. Or keep editing some random xorg.conf file because his monitor's display suddenly became weird. Or try to fix some other random files since the sound driver doesn't work. He's 10. I was doing this stuff in Linux when I was… well, not 10, but 12. Today I work with computers. What do you think ”tinkering” means? I do…

Not everyone is here to become a Computer Scientist or even a computer professional unfortunately, they want to study their favorite subject, do screen recordings, make nice presentations etc. Our company uses RHEL / CentOS distributions of Linux. And they still suffer from all these weird problems I don't find 'fun' to fix because I have actual work to do, but I have to anyway.

RHEL/CentOS is probably more likely to run into those kinds of problems on the desktop than some other, less conservative and less enterprisey distros.

RHEL (and its kin) is a stable server OS. Some organizations that have Linux-based desktops or laptops then also use it on those, perhaps for the sake of homogenisation. But the longer release cycle and conservative update policies that in part make it a stable and predictable server OS also mean that hardware support may lag by years.

This is always a topic on which people will have different experiences. Some people will have everything just working. That's perhaps most likely when the hardware has been chosen with compatibility in mind in the first place. In that case it can be pretty smooth sailing with little tweaking required and with things just working, especially compared to how it used to be, which is probably one reason why people react to claims of endless tweaking being required.

Other people will have hit a rough spot, and those certainly still exist particularly with non-specifically picked hardware, especially if that hardware is newer than the distro release.

CentOS is probably not representative of most people's experiences of running Linux on a desktop or laptop, though.

Re: The day Windows died

#475

Post by happymellon » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 7:30 AM UTC

blkhawk wrote: post #447

bboygravity wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is 100 percent why I (and many others no doubt) don't want to touch Linux. Even though it feels better/best. When it fully works on my hardware. Which it never ever does.

Good, I think that is somewhat of a feature - It serves as a bit of a moat to people who would hurt themself in their confusion. This might sound a bit harsh but Microsoft actively cultivated a type of user I would call "long time novice computer user" and combine that with the poor choices that were made regarding security design and you get results like the ninja updates Windows has these days. As for hardware comp…

But that's just it.

There is no expectation that I'll grab a random laptop off eBay and install MacOS, or install Windows on a Switch.

Then you have Windows users complaining that they have some random hardware that the manufacturer refuses to support Linux, and are shocked that it doesn't work perfectly out the box.

Re: The day Windows died

#476

Post by jchw » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 7:31 AM UTC

piyush_soni wrote: post #399

einr wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or keep trying to fix the environment + hardware compatibility issues and not work on the actual study. Or keep editing some random xorg.conf file because his monitor's display suddenly became weird. Or try to fix some other random files since the sound driver doesn't work. He's 10. I was doing this stuff in Linux when I was… well, not 10, but 12. Today I work with computers. What do you think ”tinkering” means? I do…

Not everyone is here to become a Computer Scientist or even a computer professional unfortunately, they want to study their favorite subject, do screen recordings, make nice presentations etc. Our company uses RHEL / CentOS distributions of Linux. And they still suffer from all these weird problems I don't find 'fun' to fix because I have actual work to do, but I have to anyway.

Not everyone was out to become a computer scientist when microcomputers booted to BASIC, but I don't find many people regretting their time growing up with those computers.

I will give you that Linux is needlessly complex due to undesirable issues, but that's the price of admission for a highly hackable system, since there are no serious alternatives. As for kids, I wouldn't underestimate them. If what you want to give someone is a rich and deep experience with computers, it's about all you have right now.

On the other hand, and I'm sure this part of my comment will go over swimmingly here, but I imagine... if you start kids out with iPads, what they learn is not that doing interesting things with their computers is challenging, but that it costs a monthly fee.

Re: The day Windows died

#477

Post by revelio » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 7:32 AM UTC

mrweasel wrote: post #429

andrewstuart wrote: post #308

This means the CEO of Microsoft does not care about product. Impossible to imagine Steve Jobs littering MacOS with ads and crap ware.

There have been an increase in articles and blog posts about the sad state of the Windows desktop for the past year or so. What bothers me is that it doesn't appear that any journalists have attempted to get Microsofts take on this. It's just complaining, valid as it may be, but apparently Microsoft seems to believe that this is how it should be, and I'd really like to hear the CEO of Microsoft explain to me why a to…

Nadella clearly doesn't care. Windows is down to about 12% of their revenue and is probably shrinking, presumably it'd be a lot lower still without the ads and upsells. It reports into the office team! People care about where the growth is: Azure grows, Windows shrinks, and so Nadella moves Microsoft's best people over to the cloud.

Unfortunately it's also pretty clear that the windows team is bored, visionless and drowning in tech debt. At work we ship software to Windows and it's astounding how buggy their API is, the horrific nature of the bugs and how slowly they get fixed (or never). You get the feeling it's a retirement home atmosphere for developers over there where little gets done and nobody notices.

Nadella could probably turn things around if he wanted but the plague affects Apple too, just less severely. Desktops were once the frontier and a growing business, heavily fought over, then it became mobile, then AI. People don't believe there's any juice left to squeeze in revisiting better desktop tech. Google developed three operating systems: one never made it to desktop machines even though it could have done, one was simply chrome and nothing else, and one got stuck being permanently experimental. None of them contained much in the way of new ideas except Android

But this is a pity. Desktops are where work gets done, where new tech is developed. They should get more investment than they do.

Re: The day Windows died

#478

Post by fancyfredbot » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 7:32 AM UTC

People with windows 3.1 bought windows 95 in a store in exchange for dollars. People with Windows 10 get version 11 in exchange for an eternity of advertising.

Re: The day Windows died

#479

Post by pauby » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 7:33 AM UTC

piyush_soni wrote: post #380

safety1st wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post is basically about the author's nostalgia for his early days of computing with Windows 95 and how he wanted his son to have the same experience. This post is screaming out for Linux. Linux is the solution to his dilemma. If he reformats that drive and puts say Kubuntu on it - the kid's first PC experience is going to be a vaguely retro 90's style shell with a start menu, the start menu is going to have a Ga…

> And of course it's Linux, so there's infinite opportunity to get under the hood and tinker. - Or keep trying to fix the environment + hardware compatibility issues and not do the actual work/study. Or keep editing some random xorg.conf file because his monitor's display suddenly became weird. Or try to fix some other random files since the sound driver doesn't work. He's 10. I'm 40 and still horrified to deal with…

I was very much of the same opinion until the start of the year when I went back to Linux (Manjaro this time, Kubuntu last time) for the precise reasons listed in the article.

Manjaro has caused me no more (and in some respects less) issues than Windows did. The biggest issue for me is finding equivalent software from what I had on Windows. In almost all cases, I've been successful.

Gaming is great so far. Same games.

> experts all over the internet are very condescending in general.

This is a dissapointing generalisation and not my experience. I've had nothing but support and help with any questions I have asked recently.

The Linux ecosystem is a different beast now and one I'd recommend to most people. It's not going to work for everybody but if your user case is not special, chances are you'll have a better time than the current Windows.

Re: The day Windows died

#480

Post by gigel82 » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 7:34 AM UTC

localghost3000 wrote: post #167

I am sure I will get all kinds of hate for saying this: despite the extra up front cost, apple stuff is a better value. Lets take device lifetime: I have a 2013 MBP 15 and 2015 MBP 15. I use them for intensive things like music production. Both devices work flawlessly. I also a System 76 Oryx Pro which cost more than any mac I own. The webcam failed 5 months in, several keys don't work anymore, and it gets hotter tha…

I have a 2016 MBP 15 that is struggling with anything other than browsing. It cost $2800 new (luckily bought by my employer). I also bought an Asus ultrabook in the same year (2016) for under $700 for my wife and it's still going strong (neither it nor the mac's batteries last as much as they used to, but otherwise no issues).

In my experience, I pay less upfront for a Windows machine and get to enjoy it just as much (if not longer).