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For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

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Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enlighten me how. 1) What do you do at night? 2) What do you do if there isn’t sufficient supply? 3) What if there is too much supply?

1. night currently isn't a significant problem. there's usually lots of wind, businesses aren't open and people don't use a lot of electricity when they're asleep. this may become worse overtime with increasing numbers of EVs charging at night. 2. this is the hard part, but there is good news. solar and wind over large areas are fairly consistent and with HVDC you can transfer power 1-2 thousand miles with low losses…

Do you have any idea how enormous the electricity consumption of our industry is where 24/7 production just is going on and on? Take a look here: https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/DE

If I eyeball the electricity consumption correctly, the lowest consumption was like 50 GW at 3 am in the morning and the highest was 60GW (+20%) at 1pm.

Our freakin grid is NOT capable of managing an additional load for EVs as of today or any time soon. We cannot produce enough electricity to move gasoline driven cars to EV because we right now barely manage to keep or industry alive and geothermal heatpumps and whatnot will strain it further. So regarding 1) its BULLSH*T its a massive problem.

2) Where do you live that you believe Germany can store electricity in hydro? Why do you believe there is demand shaping when we literally need a constantly high load (see 1)???

3) Yes, I understand. Easy peasy. If i get a battery for my solar panels, the investment costs are effectively above 30cents/kWh which is bogus. Yes, you can just turn off that aluminium smelter or chemical plant running a continuous process.

You clearly have never been close to an industry complex, worked in anything remotely related to “Germany’s industrial backbone”. It’s ideological wishful thinking.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#262

This would have happened a bit earlier if the most efficient and long-lasting solar panels, monocrystalline silicon, had been developed by US manufacturers instead of by Chinese ones. All the tariffs applied by state and federal regulators on the import of these panels have been about slowing the rate of solar PV production in the USA on behalf of the fossil fuel and investor-owned utility sectors. https://www.pv-mag…

Your comment makes no sense. The tariffs boosted domestic production of solar panels. The tariffs also increased the cost of solar panels, so they slowed adoption of solar. You can have Made in America, or you can have cheap, but you cannot have both.

You have knowledge of an American producer of monocrystalline silicon solar panels? Please provide more information, this is new to me.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#263

This would have happened a bit earlier if the most efficient and long-lasting solar panels, monocrystalline silicon, had been developed by US manufacturers instead of by Chinese ones. All the tariffs applied by state and federal regulators on the import of these panels have been about slowing the rate of solar PV production in the USA on behalf of the fossil fuel and investor-owned utility sectors. https://www.pv-mag…

You're forgetting labor costs in the US are much higher and environmental regulations are much more strict. So US made panels will unlikely to ever be price competitive with the Chinese made ones.

Come on, you can make silicon monocrystalline products without pollution with appropriate controls, it's no different from the computer chip production process. See CHIPS act?

China doesn't have a big natural gas / crude oil sector trying to block development of alternatives to their products, that's the difference.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#265
post #7

Nice. The economics of renewables are really hard to beat. I hope we speed up the construction speed and at the same time electrify more sectors.

The economics of renewables are hard to beat until night falls and the wind stops blowing, at which point the cost jumps to $infinity/MWh

> The economics of renewables are hard to beat until night falls and the wind stops blowing, at which point the cost jumps to $infinity/MWh

I can understand why you might think that. But there is one place on the planet that's done the renewable transition now. And it proves you wrong.

Let me introduce the state of South Australia. It's an advanced OECD economy, situated at the base end of Australia so far from anywhere it has only 1 transmission line connecting to a neighbouring state, and it's renowned for going down. Unusually for Australia, South Australia also has no coal or gas, and is famous for wild storms taking down kilometres of it's 100kv power lines.

It's currently running at 80% renewables:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australia-hits-stunning-ne...

No, the power does no go off at night.

The transition was expensive. SA already had the most expensive electricity in Australia, and during the transition prices did go up for years. But at 80% the transition is almost over (although they need to build more storage), and the price of electricity in SA has been dropping. In fact it's dropped below the pre-transition price, so it's often below the rest of Australia's coal fired generation:

https://www.aemc.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-11/sa_fact_...

With that example to follow, the rest of the Australian states are gritting their teeth and following South Australia's lead. Teeth gritting is required because we are predicting a 50% jump in electricity prices, during the transition. It's already starting to bite: https://www.afr.com/companies/energy/power-bills-to-rise-by-... . But that price hike only lasted 5 years in SA, and the light at the end of the tunnel is lower prices than we have now.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#266

Good for renewable energy. Now, make it a 24/7 steady supply of renewable energy. We’ll wait.

> We’ll wait.

You can stop waiting now. https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australia-hits-stunning-ne...

OECD ecomony, averaging 80% renewables (wind, solar primarily). The other 20% is gas. They have enough generation now. To rid of that 20% (I'm not sure the economics makes sense) they need to build pumped storage.

Oh, and now they've made the transition, electricity prices are cheaper than non-renewable generation of 5 years ago.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#267
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That'll work as long as the attackers are unwilling to simply murder civilians. Did you somehow miss Bucha? They're not protecting their land, they're protecting themselves. If a significant portion gets shot either way it's better to at least be able to shoot back, no?

> Did you somehow miss Bucha? Wars tend to allow for this kind of tragedy to happen. Much harder to slaughter people during a civilian disobedience act that is globally covered by media. Brutal repression of demonstrations also causes much more outrage, basically backfiring if your intent is to stop them. Any dictator worth a shot knows this very well. > If a significant portion gets shot either way it's better to at…

Another recent example is Myanmar. Started off as civil disobedience and protests but the military shot them up and it's now a civil war. Certainly the population would be better off had it not initially been a one-sided fight?

People who protest the war in Russia get arrested not shot because that's all it takes to suppress them. This is an argument against your point, not for it. Nor does it mean that Russia wouldn't apply harder measures elsewhere, if they thought it necessary.

Russians aren't referred to as orcs, only their soldiers.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not fully true. There are incredibly competent manufacturing engineers living there. By a factor of at least 5 over the US

I am not contending Chinese are any shape or form incapable, given the factory floor of the world for a generation they do have best of the best. The issue is State subsidies and Environmental and Labor regulation that is flimsy. Any American company operating on US soil will be uncompetitive from Day 1 trying to follow, Federal, State and EPA regulation. As much as Solar Panels are touted in Environmental community,…

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Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electrical transmission and distribution costs dwarf the cost of solar generation, 1x-5x the cost of solar generation, and you have to beef all that up for utility scale solar. Also, the interconnection queues for attaching your project to the grid are getting astronomically long now, and this is one of the biggest impediments to new renewable generation. One of the most valuable assets of a coal generation sites is…

Those costs are paid either way though, aren't they? At least, it seems that close to 100% of houses with roof-top solar are still grid connected, so I don't really see how they'd achieve any savings related to transmission and distribution.

With no behind-the-meter solar, the peak for T&D is during midday.

With behind-the-meter solar, this peak is capped, and if the local solar is allowed to power the rest of the distribution nod with net metering, then that means less transmission too.

T&D must be sized for the peak, so lots of residential solar means a lower peak and lower T&D costs.

Of course, this goes agains the utility narrative, because they can't admit that or else their regulators might have to allow such residential net metering. Instead, utilities try to frame the argument that solar customers are taking away from their neighbors or somehow not paying their fair share.

But when evaluated as a whole system, using massive distributed solar along with utility scale is far cheaper than building it all utility scale due to the T&D savings.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#270
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did you somehow miss Bucha? Wars tend to allow for this kind of tragedy to happen. Much harder to slaughter people during a civilian disobedience act that is globally covered by media. Brutal repression of demonstrations also causes much more outrage, basically backfiring if your intent is to stop them. Any dictator worth a shot knows this very well. > If a significant portion gets shot either way it's better to at…

Another recent example is Myanmar. Started off as civil disobedience and protests but the military shot them up and it's now a civil war. Certainly the population would be better off had it not initially been a one-sided fight? People who protest the war in Russia get arrested not shot because that's all it takes to suppress them. This is an argument against your point, not for it. Nor does it mean that Russia wouldn…

Nobody in the west cares about Myanmar. Most people dont even know which continent it's in. Yes, we are hypocrites, but thats what would make the difference for Ukraine.

> People who protest the war in Russia get arrested not shot because that's all it takes to suppress them

But if as you believe Ukrainians care so much then they would definitely not give up after a few being jailed.

> Nor does it mean that Russia wouldn't apply harder measures elsewhere, if they thought it necessary.

Harder than bombing cities and destroying the infrastructure? Strongly doubt so. Doesnt seem like your way worked well for the Ukrainians so far. Unless all you care about is making Russia weaker, no matter how many Ukrainians it take.

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