For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US • Hacker News Board

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#231

Post by Teever » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 6:25 PM UTC

iamerroragent wrote: post #221

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the Americans. In the meanwhile, the rest of the world is so sick of your hegemony, it would rather see anyone else, or better yet, state of a never ending direct fight between the contenders while the rest of the world is left alone. Something like Star Trek no involvement rule.

I'm sorry you don't enjoy our Coca-Cola, McDonald's, Apple, and Hollywood. I'm really really sorry that our Navy is used to protect trade. Terrible of the U.S. I'm sorry that the U.S. likes to have allies with democracies and a thriving, consuming, middle-class.

I'm always baffled by this sort of defensive and childish response that happens whenever someone makes legitimate criticisms of American foreign policy and expresses a desire for a world where their needs are given a higher priority. It hints at a deep-rooted inferiority complex in the American identity.

Are things better than they were under American hegemony? Sure. Could they be even better if we weren't stuck in this local maximum, Absolutely.

Anxiously lashing out at people because they express a desire for improvements in their society, and improvements in American society isn't productive.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#232

Post by iamerroragent » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 6:30 PM UTC

Teever wrote: post #231

iamerroragent wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry you don't enjoy our Coca-Cola, McDonald's, Apple, and Hollywood. I'm really really sorry that our Navy is used to protect trade. Terrible of the U.S. I'm sorry that the U.S. likes to have allies with democracies and a thriving, consuming, middle-class.

I'm always baffled by this sort of defensive and childish response that happens whenever someone makes legitimate criticisms of American foreign policy and expresses a desire for a world where their needs are given a higher priority. It hints at a deep-rooted inferiority complex in the American identity. Are things better than they were under American hegemony? Sure. Could they be even better if we weren't stuck in t…

I'm surprised you think this is a lash out?

"Are things better than they were under American hegemony? Sure. Could they be even better if we weren't stuck in this local maximum, Absolutely."

Yeah! Criticize America so it can be better but taking a stance that world would magically be better off without America, or even that the world doesn't want America while obsessively consuming American products seems rather childish in my opinion.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#233

Post by landemva » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 6:50 PM UTC

kragen wrote: post #192

landemva wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are various lines at various voltages. Some are 18k+. In commercial manufacturing may be 13.8k, which is further stepped down to 480 and 220 and 110. The point is that unless a residence can independently provide for their own electricity every hour of the day, then the generation and distribution will be sized for full load.

it still seems that you are unaware of the distinction i was focusing on between transmission systems and distribution systems a residence that can provide some of its own power during peak hours does not need distribution, transmission, or (utility-scale) generation sized for full load; a neighborhood that can provide some of its own power during peak hours does not need transmission or (utility-scale) generation si…

Who can generate at peak load, reliably, every hour of the day? Some areas have peak load in evening, when PV output is reduced.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#234

Post by adventured » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 6:55 PM UTC

lube wrote: post #165

rainsford wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relying on a non-friendly country for something so crucial as energy is generally not a great position to be in, particularly if that country has rival world power ambitions. Europe and Russia have provided a great recent example of why you don't want to be reliant on potential enemies for your energy needs, and while the situation between the US and China is not the same and solar is different than fossil fuels, it'…

I think your vision is too US centric, US hegemony lead to disruptions to foreign nations like afghanistan, iraq, libya, etc. My pov from latinamerica is that my country could be next, and neither your culture nor your "business class" seems the future(we reflect your cultural hegemony with our version of shitty role models), si why not challenge US hegemony?

Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya were all failed states when the US intervened / invaded (which is also not a good argument for invading those nations; the US betrayed its own self-interest in the second Iraq war).

If your nation is run by a dictatorship, it's a failed state.

If your nation is a theocracy, it's a failed state.

You'll notice the distinct lack of the US invading well-functioning, democratic nations (we share a remarkably unguarded, massive border with Canada).

You generally can't challenge US hegemony, it's far too large, and still expanding. China is the only entity since the 1950s Soviet Union that could even attempt it. For example while the EU's strongest economies have been largely going sideways for ~15 years economically (since the great recession), the US has added nearly $10 trillion to its economy (a further ~65-70% expansion in 15 years). Who is going to keep up with that, at that size (other than China)?

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#235

Post by philipkglass » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

Teever wrote: post #229

bufferoverflow wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're forgetting labor costs in the US are much higher and environmental regulations are much more strict. So US made panels will unlikely to ever be price competitive with the Chinese made ones.

I was under the impression that most of the cost difference between Chinese and American panels was due to dumping efforts by the Chinese government.

Dumping is when a producer sells their product at a lower price abroad than they do domestically [1]. For example, if Chinese solar panels sell for the Renminbi equivalent of 35 cents per watt domestically, but are sold for 30 cents per watt in the United States, that would be dumping.

As far as I can tell, Chinese solar manufacturers do not engage in this sort of straightforward and easy to define dumping. They sell their products at comparable low prices both domestically and abroad. The United States claims that advantages given to Chinese solar manufacturers (like low cost land and industrial partnerships with local governments) are unfair and counters them with measures termed "anti dumping" tariffs. Given how many perks American states and municipalities roll out to attract manufacturing jobs, including solar jobs [2], I don't see how the Chinese incentives for solar manufacturing go too far. I rather think it's something like the situation with Canadian softwood exports to the US [3]: the US government's position is dubious, but it's too powerful in practice to be held to account.

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/dumping.asp

[2] https://bgindependentmedia.org/first-solar-site-promising-50...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93United_States_s...

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#236

Post by danhor » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 7:01 PM UTC

nforgerit wrote: post #227

fbdab103 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I have idly considered - what to do with the excess daily solar energy? Presumably the problem is only going to magnify over the coming years. Net-metering agreements are continuing to get worse, so it seems that the surplus electricity will go to waste. Outside of bitcoin mining, is there any energy sink a residential user could engage to suck up the spare capacity? At the industrial scale - what processes…

Electrolyzing excess energy to produce hydrogen is a good option. Sure, it is not that efficient but you can store hydrogen and it's a useful base ingredient for many industrial processes. And if you need electrical energy you just burn it in a gas-fired power plant.

Unfortunately the equipment isn't cheap (though getting cheaper), so it only makes sense if it can run a significant portion (I've heard 25% in the coming decade for germany) of the time.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#237

Post by yen223 » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 7:02 PM UTC

Georgelemental wrote: post #133

adrianN wrote: post #7

Nice. The economics of renewables are really hard to beat. I hope we speed up the construction speed and at the same time electrify more sectors.

The economics of renewables are hard to beat until night falls and the wind stops blowing, at which point the cost jumps to $infinity/MWh

We are more likely to run out of fossil fuels before we run out of sunlight and wind

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#238

Post by Forestessential » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 7:06 PM UTC

but you got these not included: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_natural_gas_power_stat...

and for how it compares to coal, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal-fired_power_stati...

you have like 60-65% coal fired in the States.

40% of the corn produced in US is used for ethanol which is a energy intensive process which uses fossil fuels.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#239

Post by danhor » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 7:11 PM UTC

robomartin wrote: post #226

This article is a mess. Energy is NOT power. Reporting on energy (which is what the original publication does; and even they confuse it) is almost pointless. We need power. Not energy. Let me explain. There is no such thing as a useful measure of energy reliability. Energy is the accumulation of power over time. Here's a super simplistic example to illustrate the point: You spend all day walking through the desert. Y…

Both are great, since while the daily cycle is a problem with solar, the seasonal variations are a far larger issue (since much mobe energy storage is needed). But both complement each other.

Wind is stronger in the winter and solar is strong in the summer. The best consistency is achieved when both are used, not one or the other.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#240

Post by runarberg » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 7:19 PM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #104

tjbiddle wrote: post #57

My comment isn't directly related to the OP, but figured it'd be an interesting insight to share as it's very recent for me. Just finished a motorbike trip in Laos. Fun fact, their largest export is electricity. Would've never guessed that, right? 90% of the electricity they generate is exported to neighboring countries - mostly Thailand. 80% is renewable - Go Laos! But wait, it may be renewable... but turns out the…

I don't think it is helpful to celebrate countries that won the "geography birth lottery" and have huge rivers that are easy to dam. See: Laos, Paraguay, Norway, Austria, etc. Nothing is "amazing" that they are mostly green energy. Also, for other readers, Laos is a repressive "communist" dictatorship. It is no surprise that the gov't welcomed Belt & Road programme by China (with high interest loans!) to build a gian…

> Laos is a repressive "communist" dictatorship

The same exact story can be said about Iceland, which is very far from being a communist dictatorship (and it bears mentioning that Laos government is not repressive compared to many capitalist democratic governments; I don’t know where you would get that from except preconceived biases).

Iceland sells majority of its renewable energy to foreign aluminum companies. Along with fish it is the biggest export. The government is corrupt and constantly sells rights to build factories to bidders while neglecting environmental impacts. Whole towns are often run by a single Canadian aluminum company. And the green origin certificates is then sold to EU countries (just like indulgence was sold by the Catholic church), so “green” energy consumers are buying in Germany, are actually just coal power, where the energy company bought the origin certificates from Iceland.

See, you don’t need to be communist, nor a dictatorship, to do industrial scale greenwashing