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For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

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Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#41

Post by lordofgibbons »

Hanschri wrote: post #32
lenkite wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not at all funny when apparently Germany had to reopen coal plants. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-21/germany-b... "Utility Steag GmbH will add four hard-coal plants with a capacity of 2.5 gigawatts to the market within the next few weeks, while Uniper SE will prolong operations at its 345-megawatt Scholven-C hard-coal-fired power plant, the companies said on Friday. " https://www.npr.org/2022/…

You left out the specific reason as to why they re-opened coal plants at the end of 2022: "Germany is deploying about 3 gigawatts of coal-fired generation to ensure there are enough electricity supplies to make it through the winter amid curtailed natural gas supplies from Russia." This was done out of necessity to ensure Germany did not run out of natural gas during the winter months as the gas imports from Russia h…

You left out the reason why Germany was so dependent on Russian gas for energy: their out of touch with reality, (the conspiratorial amongst us might say fossil fuel company funded) plans to completely rely on fossil fuels until a transition to renewables can be completed in multiple decades.

All of this while they already have a viable green solution: Nuclear, which they planned on completely shutting down by 2022.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#42

Post by toss1 »

agentgumshoe wrote: post #33
adrianN wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm fast coming to the conclusion that all renewable tech is about allowing the government to have deep control over your energy, and to put you in a situation where you are forced to buy very expensive gear from mega-corps." That sounds like unfounded paranoia. It has literally never been easier to be an energy-independent anarchist living in a hut somewhere than today.

It was very easy actually before people decided electricity is nifty. It's quite expensive to do now if you don't want a reasonably large shift in lifestyle in doing so.

Yup. Large shift in lifestyle to become an energy-independent anarchist living off of the grid without electricity. Not much shift if you want off-grid electricity, but expensive. Seems people deciding electricity is nifty are on to something.

But with multi-kw solar+battery kits selling everywhere for just a few $k, and 1000-lumen LED lights pulling only single-digit watts, it's getting affordable to have both

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#43

Post by revertmean »

lenkite wrote: post #34
dwan128 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems really specific information that’s not really relevant to that parent comment. How did you learn about this and why do you care?

"How did you learn about this and why do you care?" Because my german colleagues were ranting about this whenever there was a break/issue in "Teams meetings". (which happens often) Why do I care ? Because people are apparently not looking at reality when they make grandiose claims about renewables and electricity generation in Europe. Replace by renewables by all means - but at-least be honest about the data.

So Germany, a country that is well behind other European countries on renewables, had an over-dependence on Russian gas and was forced to reopen some coal plants when the price spiked. And you came to the conclusion that this was somehow a fault with renewables?

How does that make sense to you?

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#44

Post by ericmay »

melling wrote: post #23
adrianN wrote: post #7

Nice. The economics of renewables are really hard to beat. I hope we speed up the construction speed and at the same time electrify more sectors.

Excellent. There are only a few thousand coal power plants globally https://www.statista.com/statistics/859266/number-of-coal-po... They generate something like 25% of greenhouse gases. When should be expect these to be replaced, and get the 25% drop in emissions? Replacing over a billion ICE cars seems with EV’s is going to be so much more work, for example. An immediate 25% drop in emissions might even buy us a few…

> Replacing over a billion ICE cars seems with EV’s is going to be so much more work, for example.

Instead we could replace ICE cars with no cars and get much more bang for our buck. A few changes to how we build so that you can walk/bike within 15 minutes for many daily needs would reduce energy consumption, save families money, still allow for a car, and everyone would be much happier and healthier.

Cars for all transit is a bad solution regardless of ICE or EV.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#45

Post by lenkite »

revertmean wrote: post #43
lenkite wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"How did you learn about this and why do you care?" Because my german colleagues were ranting about this whenever there was a break/issue in "Teams meetings". (which happens often) Why do I care ? Because people are apparently not looking at reality when they make grandiose claims about renewables and electricity generation in Europe. Replace by renewables by all means - but at-least be honest about the data.

So Germany, a country that is well behind other European countries on renewables, had an over-dependence on Russian gas and was forced to reopen some coal plants when the price spiked. And you came to the conclusion that this was somehow a fault with renewables? How does that make sense to you?

Why did you think its Germany alone ? It's Austria, France and the Netherlands as well. France and Austria both re-opened coal power plants. Even the Netherlands removed their cap on coal power.

How does that make sense to you ?

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#46

Post by toomuchtodo »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #35
digdugdirk wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that many US states are actively implementing legislation to disincentivize solar installation. Not disagreeing with your statement, just pointing out that there's many headwinds to a greener energy future.

Sure, but is that slowing down installations or just setting us up for a correction some time in the future when people install solar anyway? It seems to me that the market for rooftop solar is in any case supply constrained, not demand constrained. And I can't imagine this being very popular with homeowners or the politicians that represent them, regardless of their political color. So, there might be some backlash…

Correct. Legislation to disincentive rooftop solar works until battery economics improve sufficiently, at which point the install velocity accelerates because you can sidestep unfavorable net metering or time of day pricing. You’ll then consume your own solar during production, consume it from batteries when not producing, and relying on the grid for shortfall. The next fight will be the legal ability to disconnect from the grid and be self sufficient when they attempt to make connection charges onerous and mandatory.

Tangentially, at scale, this is referred to as a utility death spiral.

https://eepower.com/news/71-of-u-s-utilities-see-the-utility...

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#47

Post by ericmay »

soitgoes511 wrote: post #31
anovikov wrote: post #19

It's so funny to read discussions of "whether or not renewables are viable for replacement of all or most of electricity needs in the U.S.". Here in Europe, we have it figured many years ago and are replacing fossil-fueled generation at a crazy rate, will probably push it to a niche use (gas peakers to fill void when there's neither sun or wind and before enough electrolyzers are put online), in less than 10 years.

Is this why we were having energy shortages during the winter time and there was a rush to get the nuclear reactors back online in France ? I don't consider that having, "it figured out". If you want to discuss prices.. my place of employment is paying millions more euro this year than last. The increase in energy cost is also leading to increase in water costs.. I could go on, but you get the point.

Wouldn’t rushing to get nuclear reactors online just make the OPs point stronger? Geopolitics of oil showed the weakness of relying on fossil fuels.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#48

Post by tmountain »

digdugdirk wrote: post #28
jillesvangurp wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that's often overlooked in statistics like this is roof top solar because it's just not that easy to account for. In places like Australia, where double digit percentages of homes have solar and where building codes are actually being changed to require solar panels, this is a non trivial amount that is putting a lot of pressure on energy suppliers to adapt. Effectively whole states are running on solar whe…

Keep in mind that many US states are actively implementing legislation to disincentivize solar installation. Not disagreeing with your statement, just pointing out that there's many headwinds to a greener energy future.

I have solar on my roof, but I had to negotiate a net metering agreement with my utility company. I have friends saying the same utility company is now pushing back on new agreements. It seems that stupid issues will need to be resolved before solar hits a critical mass.

That said, batteries help.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#49

Post by emj »

audunw wrote: post #6
jokoon wrote: post #2

It doesn't really matter if renewable generated more energy than coal for 1 day. What matters is annual generation. Renewables generates 5 times less than coal annually and still peak for a short period of time, so this is not a big progress. Wind turbines can have big energy peaks when it's very windy, but there is no cheap way to store that energy for a long period of time, WHICH IS WHY NUCLEAR IS THE GREENEST BASE…

> but there is no cheap way to store that energy for a long period of time It's getting close to the point that wind+storage can compete with nuclear, and even gas, on price. With the way cost has been developing on renewables and energy storage sulitons it's more or less inevitable. You're also starting to see off-shore wind, even floating off-shore, come rapidly down in cost, and those have more stable generation a…

The extremist right wing parties in Sweden are dead set against wind power. For many reasons, mainly because it's politically good to differentiate yourself like that against the evil greens. Sweden produces a significant amount of steel and has green metal production up and running. I would say that there is a real risk this will not be expanded to commercial deliveries because of populism against wind power, but I am overly pessimistic whenever I see right wing populism.

SSAB and LKAB has experimented with green steel since ~2017. [0]

[0] https://www.ssab.com/sv-se/ssab-koncern/hallbarhet/fossilfri...

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#50

Post by pastacacioepepe »

lordofgibbons wrote: post #41
Hanschri wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You left out the specific reason as to why they re-opened coal plants at the end of 2022: "Germany is deploying about 3 gigawatts of coal-fired generation to ensure there are enough electricity supplies to make it through the winter amid curtailed natural gas supplies from Russia." This was done out of necessity to ensure Germany did not run out of natural gas during the winter months as the gas imports from Russia h…

You left out the reason why Germany was so dependent on Russian gas for energy: their out of touch with reality, (the conspiratorial amongst us might say fossil fuel company funded) plans to completely rely on fossil fuels until a transition to renewables can be completed in multiple decades. All of this while they already have a viable green solution: Nuclear, which they planned on completely shutting down by 2022.

Oh please. Cheap Energy is what made Germany the industrial powerhouse of Europe. Getting gas from Russia was one of the best things Merkel did for her country and its citizens.
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