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For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

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Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#31

Post by soitgoes511 »

anovikov wrote: post #19

It's so funny to read discussions of "whether or not renewables are viable for replacement of all or most of electricity needs in the U.S.". Here in Europe, we have it figured many years ago and are replacing fossil-fueled generation at a crazy rate, will probably push it to a niche use (gas peakers to fill void when there's neither sun or wind and before enough electrolyzers are put online), in less than 10 years.

Is this why we were having energy shortages during the winter time and there was a rush to get the nuclear reactors back online in France ? I don't consider that having, "it figured out". If you want to discuss prices.. my place of employment is paying millions more euro this year than last. The increase in energy cost is also leading to increase in water costs.. I could go on, but you get the point.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#32

Post by Hanschri »

lenkite wrote: post #29
anovikov wrote: post #19

It's so funny to read discussions of "whether or not renewables are viable for replacement of all or most of electricity needs in the U.S.". Here in Europe, we have it figured many years ago and are replacing fossil-fueled generation at a crazy rate, will probably push it to a niche use (gas peakers to fill void when there's neither sun or wind and before enough electrolyzers are put online), in less than 10 years.

It is not at all funny when apparently Germany had to reopen coal plants. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-21/germany-b... "Utility Steag GmbH will add four hard-coal plants with a capacity of 2.5 gigawatts to the market within the next few weeks, while Uniper SE will prolong operations at its 345-megawatt Scholven-C hard-coal-fired power plant, the companies said on Friday. " https://www.npr.org/2022/…

You left out the specific reason as to why they re-opened coal plants at the end of 2022:

"Germany is deploying about 3 gigawatts of coal-fired generation to ensure there are enough electricity supplies to make it through the winter amid curtailed natural gas supplies from Russia."

This was done out of necessity to ensure Germany did not run out of natural gas during the winter months as the gas imports from Russia have more or less dried up. I am not German nor am I up to date on their measures to transitioning their grid to renewable energy, but if anything this war is accelerating the transition for many countries in Europe. Even if this means they have to temporarily re-open fossile fuel power plants.

This could possibly have been avoided had the German government not shut its nuclear power plants down in the previous years, but that's another discussion.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#33

Post by agentgumshoe »

adrianN wrote: post #20
verisimi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Solar gives lots of electricity in the summer. But you have light and warmth then. In the winter when you need the electricity, you get maybe 1/10 of whatever the solar array is capable of. Wind is not generally viable, except in very windy locations. Biogas (eg anaerobic digestors) seems much more possible - but even these need warmth to run well - so aren't as good in the winter. And when you think that yes…

"I'm fast coming to the conclusion that all renewable tech is about allowing the government to have deep control over your energy, and to put you in a situation where you are forced to buy very expensive gear from mega-corps." That sounds like unfounded paranoia. It has literally never been easier to be an energy-independent anarchist living in a hut somewhere than today.

It was very easy actually before people decided electricity is nifty.

It's quite expensive to do now if you don't want a reasonably large shift in lifestyle in doing so.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#34

Post by lenkite »

dwan128 wrote: post #30
lenkite wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not at all funny when apparently Germany had to reopen coal plants. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-21/germany-b... "Utility Steag GmbH will add four hard-coal plants with a capacity of 2.5 gigawatts to the market within the next few weeks, while Uniper SE will prolong operations at its 345-megawatt Scholven-C hard-coal-fired power plant, the companies said on Friday. " https://www.npr.org/2022/…

This seems really specific information that’s not really relevant to that parent comment. How did you learn about this and why do you care?

"How did you learn about this and why do you care?"

Because my german colleagues were ranting about this whenever there was a break/issue in "Teams meetings". (which happens often)

Why do I care ? Because people are apparently not looking at reality when they make grandiose claims about renewables and electricity generation in Europe. Replace by renewables by all means - but at-least be honest about the data.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#35

Post by jillesvangurp »

digdugdirk wrote: post #28
jillesvangurp wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that's often overlooked in statistics like this is roof top solar because it's just not that easy to account for. In places like Australia, where double digit percentages of homes have solar and where building codes are actually being changed to require solar panels, this is a non trivial amount that is putting a lot of pressure on energy suppliers to adapt. Effectively whole states are running on solar whe…

Keep in mind that many US states are actively implementing legislation to disincentivize solar installation. Not disagreeing with your statement, just pointing out that there's many headwinds to a greener energy future.

Sure, but is that slowing down installations or just setting us up for a correction some time in the future when people install solar anyway? It seems to me that the market for rooftop solar is in any case supply constrained, not demand constrained.

And I can't imagine this being very popular with homeowners or the politicians that represent them, regardless of their political color. So, there might be some backlash against this as well at some point.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#36

Post by zeckalpha »

anovikov wrote: post #26
adrianN wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A crazy rate" that is unfortunately still much too slow to limit warming to 2° or below.

Forget global warming. Of course it will not be stopped. All fossil fuels will be burnt till full exhaustion of reserves, until the remainder is completely uneconomical to extract. But then the nations that were the last to start switching will find their economies too inefficient and expensive to run with the fossil fuels while everyone else is using much cheaper renewables, and will probably no longer have money fo…

As climate risk increases demand for renewables, we may actually see a decline in price for fossil fuels, at least for a time, resulting in prolonged bimodal consumption.

I think we've been in this artificially low fossil fuel price environment since the beginning though: the externalities aren't priced in.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#37

Post by lenkite »

Hanschri wrote: post #32
lenkite wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not at all funny when apparently Germany had to reopen coal plants. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-21/germany-b... "Utility Steag GmbH will add four hard-coal plants with a capacity of 2.5 gigawatts to the market within the next few weeks, while Uniper SE will prolong operations at its 345-megawatt Scholven-C hard-coal-fired power plant, the companies said on Friday. " https://www.npr.org/2022/…

You left out the specific reason as to why they re-opened coal plants at the end of 2022: "Germany is deploying about 3 gigawatts of coal-fired generation to ensure there are enough electricity supplies to make it through the winter amid curtailed natural gas supplies from Russia." This was done out of necessity to ensure Germany did not run out of natural gas during the winter months as the gas imports from Russia h…

Its already DST in Germany and these coal plants are still open. Let's actually wait and see if they are truly shut down this year. My guess is no - and my german colleagues believe they will still be open for the next several years - providing a third to half of Germany's electricity.

(But keep it hush-hush and lets not talk about this dirty fact on HN - it looks bad you know ?)

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#38

Post by simion314 »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #25
adrianN wrote: post #7

Nice. The economics of renewables are really hard to beat. I hope we speed up the construction speed and at the same time electrify more sectors.

One thing that's often overlooked in statistics like this is roof top solar because it's just not that easy to account for. In places like Australia, where double digit percentages of homes have solar and where building codes are actually being changed to require solar panels, this is a non trivial amount that is putting a lot of pressure on energy suppliers to adapt. Effectively whole states are running on solar whe…

I will install solar(not in US) but AFAIK batteries are not yet cost effective, Am I wrong and someone invented some cheap batteries? I expect that a company could be more efficient building giant batteries(chemical, gravity, etc) then a household buying something and maintaining it.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#39

Post by agentgumshoe »

jokoon wrote: post #2

It doesn't really matter if renewable generated more energy than coal for 1 day. What matters is annual generation. Renewables generates 5 times less than coal annually and still peak for a short period of time, so this is not a big progress. Wind turbines can have big energy peaks when it's very windy, but there is no cheap way to store that energy for a long period of time, WHICH IS WHY NUCLEAR IS THE GREENEST BASE…

And wind requires immense use of rare metals that are often acquired through slave labour and create massive radioactive pools of waste.

It is interesting to see the responses to Nuclear of 'too much up front/takes too long' while simultaneously patiently waiting out solar/wind 'it's getting there.'

Interesting they also included biomass here as it is certainly not a carbon friendly process nor renewable.

Too much 'we've picked our winners and won't hear a negative word' in this space now, and it's getting worse.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#40

Post by tnel77 »

jokoon wrote: post #2

It doesn't really matter if renewable generated more energy than coal for 1 day. What matters is annual generation. Renewables generates 5 times less than coal annually and still peak for a short period of time, so this is not a big progress. Wind turbines can have big energy peaks when it's very windy, but there is no cheap way to store that energy for a long period of time, WHICH IS WHY NUCLEAR IS THE GREENEST BASE…

Nuclear is obviously an amazing source of energy, but the stigma is insane.

In high school, my Chem II class had an assignment where pairs of kids had to present on why nuclear was good or bad. Of 16 or so kids, only my friend and I presented on why nuclear energy was good. Even the chemistry teacher was against nuclear energy.

Edit: This was in rural USA.

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