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What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

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Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#481

Post by salzig »

watrami wrote: post #103

It seems like it's the same story everywhere I look. Housing is the main driver of inequality and there is little change happening. We have the same problem here in Germany. I am currently living in Munich to finish my CS Master's at TUM and build a startup, and it is absolutely impossible to find anything remotely affordable. I am supported by two startup scholarships and make enough to get by, but no landlord even…

IMHO Germany is killing its social stability and its future by having this situation right now. And I‘m afraid this will bring more votes to AFD and similar rightwing parties. Kinda similar to a century ago.

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#482

Post by automatic6131 »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #233
satvikpendem wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One interesting point regarding this is, ask anyone in the first world whether they want the same fairness as those not in the first world, ie if we added up all of the wages of everyone on the planet and redistributed them equally, the first worlder would be much much poorer than where they started off. Of course, I do support bringing up the average wages in each country overall, which is precisely what capitalism…

> if we added up all of the wages of everyone on the planet and redistributed them equally, the first worlder would be much much poorer than where they started off This point of 'most people only want what benefits them' is very shallow. You've set up the question for failure. You limited comparison to income, and to income just among labour class. If you actually setup the question correctly, you might find the resu…

>active, competent and interventionist governments >China

oh boy, do you have some reading to do

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#483

Post by luckylion »

illiarian wrote: post #381
slaw wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you point me to these plenty cheap areas? I work remotely and may consider moving there.

In Sweden if you move from Stockholm to Eskilstuna (1h30m drive away) you can find a 5 room 100 sqm apartment in the dead center of the town for the price of a 2 room 45-50 sqm apartment in any of the immediate suburbs of Stockholm. Or, to put it simply, move out of the big city, and the prices drop by a factor of two or more.

That's true in Germany as well, but to get cheap property, you have to go very far from the city, and Germany not being that huge, you'll be close to the next metro area by then.

Like, sure, a 120sqm house might be 400k in Hamburg and only 230k 60 minutes out to the north west (both needing an additional 25-50% of price in renovation costs), but the average net income is 30k/year and you're expected to have at least 20% in cash.

You can get very cheap houses in Saxony or Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, but there will be little to no infrastructure (like, the next gynaecologist might be a 60 minute car trip away), your neighbors will be down on their luck, unemployed and voting far right, and you'll essentially need to rebuild the house - and you'll need to do much of it yourself because the tradesmen work on construction sites in the big cities and rarely take local jobs.

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#484

Post by brutusborn »

visarga wrote: post #477
brutusborn wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better solution is land value taxation because it hits those with old wealth the hardest whilst not distorting markets. Wealth tax and inheritance taxes can be gamed and avoided. Land cannot be moved or hidden. Now that a minority of people own land in many locales, this will soon be a politically acceptable policy. Georgism made sense in the 1800s and it makes even more sense now.

Taking land while letting AI usage get away scot-free? We need to close the lid on both sides.

What’s AI?

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#485

Post by jopsen »

rickydroll wrote: post #287
nemo44x wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is unique for a few reasons: 1) Very insulated culture with nearly no immigration coupled with low birth rates. 2) They build houses very differently. They aren't generally made to last centuries if taken care of and renovated. The strategy is to build small units cheaply and tare down after 2- years. It's like Ikea for homes. 3) I agree, depopulation is a problem. We really need to incentivize middle and upper…

item 3 is solving the wrong problem. people will have babies when they have space and feel like they can give their kids a better future. trying to move people into dense urban living it the opposite of space needed for kids. right now, we cannot give kids a better future in the current billionaire run world. we need to depopulate the billionaires and with the freed up wealth, fix the environmental problems so we hav…

> we need to depopulate the billionaires and with the freed up wealth

You don't free up wealth that way, more likely you destroy it.

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#486

Post by jopsen »

dumbotron wrote: post #307
TulliusCicero wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems like it's the same story everywhere I look. Housing is the main driver of inequality and there is little change happening. It's a way of transferring money from younger adults to older adults, and older adults vote. It's basically an intergenerational pyramid scheme where each generation pays to the previous one, and each time they pay more. Of course, like any pyramid scheme, you can only keep it up so lo…

Imagine if votes were weighted by life expectancy

Imagine if votes were weighted by life experience

I guess that would sort of even things out :D

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#487

Post by 4gotunameagain »

arthur_sav wrote: post #442
brodo wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What country did you move to?

UAE

So instead of contributing back to the Swedish welfare state that raised and educated you, you decide to move to a petrodollar country so you spend less on taxes. I get it. Sounds sustainable and not the least egocentric.

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#488

Post by midasuni »

hungryforcodes wrote: post #473
Brybry wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also the other obvious answer that people have been doing for centuries is multi-generational households. It's not the end of the world to live with your parents (or your partner's). I think we could see a lot of pressure towards that as Western total fertility rate continues to decrease and larger population groups (Millennials) age with fewer or no children to help out. Even a shift towards non-relatives households…

The main reason I got my first hob was to be able to move out. My parents drove me nuts. I've been independent ever since. I'd rather live in a tiny studio with just a mattress than live with them. Also nothing signals undateable more than "I love with my parents".

> Also nothing signals undateable more than "I love with my parents".

That’s is true, but I suspect it’s also a typo!

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#489

Post by nivenkos »

brabel wrote: post #44
nivenkos wrote: post #7

The main problem is the terrible rent control system - with a lucky few getting rent-controlled first-hand contracts, and everyone else facing a cut-throat almost completely unregulated market of sub-letting. Rent control never works.

Very true. I wanted to buy an investment property in Sweden, and rent it out while waiting for prices to go back up in a few years... but learned that this is not a thing here! If you want to rent out, you need permission of your building association, which normally won't give it... or you can buy a "detached house" (no association) which is usually much more expensive, but then you must deal with renters and find th…

I don't mind the control on BRFs stopping absentee landlords - as it helps to keep the prices for residents reasonable.

But the rent-controlled first hand contracts system is ridiculous - that needs to be abolished to have a true market on direct rentals - so all residents could rent directly from the housing companies without landlord middlemen.

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#490

Post by sys42590 »

somedude895 wrote: post #375
erur wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely not every city in Germany that has this problem. You're trying to live in one of the objectively best parts of Germany by a lot of stats and thus you're competing with a lot of folks. I'm honestly sick of this whining about rent in top-tier areas. Living there is a luxury, given the major move to cities and scarcity, driven by insane regulations and basic logic. There are plenty of cities in Germany w…

> I'm honestly sick of this whining about rent in top-tier areas. I don't know if this applies to GP, but we certainly get this in Zurich, Switzerland. We have a fantastic public transport system, and you can get fairly affordable apartments that are <30mins away from the city center of Zurich by train. But people somehow feel they have a right to live dead center in one of the most expensive cities in the world righ…

If you look at Zürich, one thing that stands out is that everything related to school and daycare / day school works a LOT better in Zürich than in surrounding nearby cities and villages, which is probably a boon of having a socialist city government. So for parents it IS attractive to stay in Zürich instead of moving 30 train minutes outside.

Of course not everything is greener in Zürich, but if you need some public services like well organized schools or services for the elderly, Zürich city is really a bit nicer.

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