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What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

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Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#301

It seems like it's the same story everywhere I look. Housing is the main driver of inequality and there is little change happening. We have the same problem here in Germany. I am currently living in Munich to finish my CS Master's at TUM and build a startup, and it is absolutely impossible to find anything remotely affordable. I am supported by two startup scholarships and make enough to get by, but no landlord even…

> Housing is the main driver of inequality and there is little change happening.

Have hope. Things are changing as I see it.

Fundamentally, I believe that we have seen a multi-decade boom because property prices are closely linked with interest rates. People borrow according to their capacity to service the loan. For most home buyers affordability is measured by monthly repayments, not the ticket price.

As prices rose, capital gains became a more significant consideration. This meant that some people who would not have purchased investment properties did so. They would not have done this if they were only looking at the income earning potential of the asset. Rental yields have been getting much worse over time. People stopped investing for yield and started to speculate - doing well with favourable tax regulations and the leverage opportunities that mortgages provide.

In the past, if you owned a second home (holiday home, convenient apartment in the city, etc) it would cost you money if its value didn't appreciate at a quick enough rate. For decades now that hasn't been the case - property prices have been appreciating so quickly that owning a property has been a good financial bet even if it hasn't been earning any income. It was no longer the preserve of those wealthy enough to maintain more than one property just for the lifestyle it allows. Naturally this means that the number of people that have been doing this has increased considerably.

There is no doubt in my mind that the proportion of underutilised properties has increased in correlation with the rise in property values and the steady decline in interest rates. For many, this is hard to accept as it doesn't fit with the naive assumption that prices have been rising because there is somehow more demand for homes. What they forget to factor in is that there is a difference between demand for homes and demand for investment opportunities. To put it another way, a speculative boom creates artificial demand.

A few points to back this up:

- In the UK, the proportion of underutilised properties is highest in areas with a higher average property value.

- In Melbourne, Australia, it has been shown (through examining water usage) that the proportion of empty properties is highest in areas that have experienced the highest capital gains.

- In NZ, the ratio of households to dwellings has decreased since the mid-90s (the start of NZ's boom).

All of this suggests that the rise in prices is not due to a shortage of dwellings for people to live in. It is a shortage of available dwellings.

The wheels came flying off NZ's property market at the start of 2022. This was caused by rising interest rates. Where I live, this resulted in a flood of properties getting listed for sale and an increase in available rentals at lower rents. Where did those extra rentals come from?

Another factor in all of this is the rise in short term rentals (AirBnB, etc). AirBnB effectively allows property investors to take properties out of the housing stock and still collect rent. Many cities around the world (especially major European tourist destinations) suffer from this. Ideally it would be regulated much more tightly in future, but I think there is a small chance that that may not be necessary. Prices are now so high in many places, and servicing loans so costly, that even the higher rents that can be achieved in this market may not be enough to make yields worthwhile. A lot of these properties may make their way back to the regular housing stock as investors are forced to sell up.

So, the big question in all of this is, we know what happens when interest rates drop and property prices appreciate - what happens when interest rates rise and capital gains are off the table (or negative gains become the norm)?

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#302
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What powers do you think the BJP has that the WEF doesn't?

The BJP is one of the two largest political parties in India.

So say someone walks in and argues that the BJP has no power other than adding a tag to names in an election, and we should rather talk about the actual policy makers making decisions? Seem like a fair argument to you for why the BJP is not a real political entity?

Because that misses the points just as much as it does in describing the WEF. There is coordination going on beyond the official powers of the organisation. The organisation exists to coordinate political action!

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#303

I'm in the highest percentiles of income in Sweden (public data is available) and it doesn't matter. It's basically impossible for me to afford a house / apartment for my family in the best neighborhoods. What's the point? What is the point of trying to be a high performer if wealth can't be acquired by income? Why would I want to work for anyone in this country? Only way out is equity and that game is even harder to…

Sweden is full of old money, or at least it looks like that from a Finnish perspective. The problem with old money is that if you simply invest the money passively and don't do anything stupid, the next generation is going to be even richer. Both in relative and absolute terms. Being able to live in the most desirable areas is based on relative wealth. If there is a lot of old money, it's harder to make it to the top…

A better solution is land value taxation because it hits those with old wealth the hardest whilst not distorting markets. Wealth tax and inheritance taxes can be gamed and avoided. Land cannot be moved or hidden. Now that a minority of people own land in many locales, this will soon be a politically acceptable policy.

Georgism made sense in the 1800s and it makes even more sense now.

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#304
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The BJP is one of the two largest political parties in India.

So say someone walks in and argues that the BJP has no power other than adding a tag to names in an election, and we should rather talk about the actual policy makers making decisions? Seem like a fair argument to you for why the BJP is not a real political entity? Because that misses the points just as much as it does in describing the WEF. There is coordination going on beyond the official powers of the organisatio…

That is drastically more power than the WEF has.

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#305
Ten years ago the average mortgage length in Sweden was 140 years.

It's been limited to 105 years now, and the length has reduced. It's hard to imagine a market like that can be anything but dysfunctional.

https://www.thelocal.se/20160324/sweden-limits-mortgage-loan...

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#306

It seems like it's the same story everywhere I look. Housing is the main driver of inequality and there is little change happening. We have the same problem here in Germany. I am currently living in Munich to finish my CS Master's at TUM and build a startup, and it is absolutely impossible to find anything remotely affordable. I am supported by two startup scholarships and make enough to get by, but no landlord even…

The solution is obvious. Just look at Vienna, not far away from Munich. A lot of flats belong directly to the city of Vienna and a lot of subsidized and owner restricted flats exist. The prices on the free market were also rising the last years but much lower than in other cities. Red Vienna got it right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Vienna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemeindebau

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#307

It seems like it's the same story everywhere I look. Housing is the main driver of inequality and there is little change happening. We have the same problem here in Germany. I am currently living in Munich to finish my CS Master's at TUM and build a startup, and it is absolutely impossible to find anything remotely affordable. I am supported by two startup scholarships and make enough to get by, but no landlord even…

> It seems like it's the same story everywhere I look. Housing is the main driver of inequality and there is little change happening. It's a way of transferring money from younger adults to older adults, and older adults vote. It's basically an intergenerational pyramid scheme where each generation pays to the previous one, and each time they pay more. Of course, like any pyramid scheme, you can only keep it up so lo…

Imagine if votes were weighted by life expectancy

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is unique for a few reasons: 1) Very insulated culture with nearly no immigration coupled with low birth rates. 2) They build houses very differently. They aren't generally made to last centuries if taken care of and renovated. The strategy is to build small units cheaply and tare down after 2- years. It's like Ikea for homes. 3) I agree, depopulation is a problem. We really need to incentivize middle and upper…

item 3 is solving the wrong problem. people will have babies when they have space and feel like they can give their kids a better future. trying to move people into dense urban living it the opposite of space needed for kids. right now, we cannot give kids a better future in the current billionaire run world. we need to depopulate the billionaires and with the freed up wealth, fix the environmental problems so we hav…

Do.you have kids?

"Having space and feeling like they can give them a better future" is about 1 thing.

Money

If you eliminated any of income taxes, or a combination of SS + reducing deficit spending (inflation), or the % of income going to heakthcare by eliminating its employee and employee subsidies (Medicares), there would be a populatiom boom.

All you need to do is free people from having to make money, to meet basic needs. And people Will have children again.

Instead, we have a social policy that everyone just needs to work in order to pay for the sins (and pleasure) of their previous generation.

Yes. Those Caribbean cruises , FL homes & racetrack bets, are paid by the empty silence of hospital newborn wards across the country.

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#309
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Sweden story sounds so much like the SF story. It sounds like the same story being repeated all over the world. There was someone on comments here on another thread talking about how this is a problem in Ireland now as well. It's not just SF in the US, it's all over the place. A friend recently told me about his search for a place to rent in rural western Washington and they said it was just impossible to find…

REITs buy up housing everywhere. That’s your answer - the wealthy elite need ways to keep making money.

REITs aren't the problem; it's a lack of construction.

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#310

Surprised no one on here mentioned estate taxes - Sweden repealed estate taxes in 2005 [0], and as such Sweden has one of the highest wealth (not income) Ginis in the world [1]. Other notable developed countries in the top of the wealth list are Netherlands (€1.3mil exemption from inheritance tax if planned correctly [2]) and the US (no inheritance tax below $12mil [3]). In essence, you are allowing the top 10% to go…

Sweden abolished inheritance taxes because the cost of enforcing the tax was greater than the taxes raised, and was passed by a left-wing coalition. At the time, it was considered a success of social democracy to not need inheritance taxes (and in fact, everyone, including the law, referred to dödsskatten - the death tax). 20 years isn’t ready enough time for wealth to consolidate like that via inheritance alone, and similar countries (like Norway and Germany) are seeing similarly rapid raises in their Gini Indexes for wealth, without chances to their inheritance tax systems. Something is broken in Western economies, but unfortunately, inheritance taxes in Sweden aren’t the problem.
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