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These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

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Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#31

Post by Scarblac »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #20
cornholio wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

>Agriculture competes with urbanization and it will always lose, as it should, because it's not an inherently superior or moral use of land Easy for you to say when you have a full stomach. See what happened in countries that disregard their farmers or agricultural sectors. Food price soared, and social unrest set in leading to crime, anarchy and governments collapsing. People need to eat, simple. Hungry people will…

The Netherlands is tiny and the 2nd largest agricultural exporter in the world by value, after the US. After the hunger winter in 1944 we became obsessed with food production but there is such a thing as too much.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#32

Post by sfvisser »

tfourb wrote: post #25
waihtis wrote: post #5

The EU keep pumping out these absolutely ridiculous green policies that have crippling effects locally. Recently they brought out a new energy efficiency directive which could cause up to 50% (!) of Finnish flats & houses to require sizeable renovations. Brussels have been very effective in transforming a useful economic union into a centrally managed dystopian nightmare that a lot of people will soon be willing to b…

This is a negotiating position (!) by the EU Parliament, not a finished regulation or decree. Regarding the actual content: If adopted as proposed (which is unlikely), it would force owners of the 30% of least energy efficient houses (compared to the national, not EU-wide, housing stock) to upgrade their houses to come in line with the next higher energy efficiency class – by 2033, so ten years from now. I own severa…

> I own several buildings

> expense in the low five figures

> So what are people complaining about, exactly?

This is an incredible take.

Many people don’t have the luxury to just spend five figures on a mandatory house renovation.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#33

Post by datadeft »

holoduke wrote: post #4

If you ask yourself what the possible benefits are for dutch people. Absolutely nothing. Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Next. These datacenters are huge energy consumers in an already scarse market. Drives prices up. Nobody wants to live close to these ugly heavily guarded places. At the same time the Netherlands faces a housing crisis often…

We let companies to get away pretty much anything. Tax evasion (funnily enough paying tax __after__ expenses), environmental damages and few more.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#34

Post by bojan »

cornholio wrote: post #13
holoduke wrote: post #4

If you ask yourself what the possible benefits are for dutch people. Absolutely nothing. Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Next. These datacenters are huge energy consumers in an already scarse market. Drives prices up. Nobody wants to live close to these ugly heavily guarded places. At the same time the Netherlands faces a housing crisis often…

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

Except in the Netherlands, where urbanization is actually losing from agriculture. We have a structural housing shortage while 54% of this tiny land's surface is used for agriculture, and then mostly for those disastrous monocultures.

Dutch farmers are probably the most privileged group in the country and they are fighting tooth and nail to preserve that status no matter the cost.

Anything they say or complain about should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#35

Post by datadeft »

cornholio wrote: post #13
holoduke wrote: post #4

If you ask yourself what the possible benefits are for dutch people. Absolutely nothing. Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Next. These datacenters are huge energy consumers in an already scarse market. Drives prices up. Nobody wants to live close to these ugly heavily guarded places. At the same time the Netherlands faces a housing crisis often…

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

Combine this with automation and you get what is happening in the western world from 1970 onward, making the rich richer the poor poorer and stagnating middle class at best.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#36

Post by mirekrusin »

Why_O_My wrote: post #26
defrost wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let them eat datacentres indeed. The counterpoint here is what gross tonnage per annum does the population of the Netherlands consume .. and in the event of supply chain disruptions, should (say) NATO hiccup, to what degree are they self sufficient? Farming and urban land uses aren't a straight either|or, they're a complex need both.

60 percent of dutch meat is exported, we can do with a whole lot less.

Exported doesn't mean throwing in the trash, somebody is using and depending on it.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#37

Post by holoduke »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #11
holoduke wrote: post #4

If you ask yourself what the possible benefits are for dutch people. Absolutely nothing. Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Next. These datacenters are huge energy consumers in an already scarse market. Drives prices up. Nobody wants to live close to these ugly heavily guarded places. At the same time the Netherlands faces a housing crisis often…

>Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Why are the Dutch angry with EU and Microsoft and not with their elected Dutch government officials who set up these legal tax dodging opportunities to attract such corporations in the first place? They made the rules, Microsoft (and other companies) are just following them.

Because these companies have no morals. They dont care if their foreign factory doesnt follow American laws regarding work safety and other regulations. As long as the local laws permits them they do anything what is possible. Only when things become public and affects their reputation things might change. Only then. Thats why we dont welcome them.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#38

Post by mirekrusin »

defrost wrote: post #21
cornholio wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

Let them eat datacentres indeed. The counterpoint here is what gross tonnage per annum does the population of the Netherlands consume .. and in the event of supply chain disruptions, should (say) NATO hiccup, to what degree are they self sufficient? Farming and urban land uses aren't a straight either|or, they're a complex need both.

Yep, plenty of space to grow food is metaverse.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#39

Post by spiderfarmer »

bojan wrote: post #34
cornholio wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

Except in the Netherlands, where urbanization is actually losing from agriculture. We have a structural housing shortage while 54% of this tiny land's surface is used for agriculture, and then mostly for those disastrous monocultures. Dutch farmers are probably the most privileged group in the country and they are fighting tooth and nail to preserve that status no matter the cost. Anything they say or complain about…

It sounds so arrogant to say farmers are privileged, while these families have worked for generations to build these farms. There are even people advocating to take the farms from them, if necessary by force. I don’t blame the farmers if they want to hold on to every inch, and to fight for every right they still have.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#40

Post by spiderfarmer »

mtts wrote: post #27
KennyBlanken wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most of agriculture are ecologically disastrous monocultures drenched in herbicides and fertilizers. In the EU they use substantially less pesticides and fertilizers than we do in the US, and have as good or better yields.

Maybe that’s just setting a low bar. Dutch agriculture is anything but a bucolic idyl, instead consisting of very large industrial operations owned by an ever decreasing number of companies that produce vast amounts of food for export using imported feed and plowing the manure that remains, truly stupendous amounts, into the soil thereby rendering it effectively dead. Large tracts of the province of Drente, formerly…

It would be a lot more ecologically disastrous to move operations to less suitable areas.
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