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These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

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Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#21

Post by defrost »

cornholio wrote: post #13
holoduke wrote: post #4

If you ask yourself what the possible benefits are for dutch people. Absolutely nothing. Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Next. These datacenters are huge energy consumers in an already scarse market. Drives prices up. Nobody wants to live close to these ugly heavily guarded places. At the same time the Netherlands faces a housing crisis often…

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

Let them eat datacentres indeed.

The counterpoint here is what gross tonnage per annum does the population of the Netherlands consume .. and in the event of supply chain disruptions, should (say) NATO hiccup, to what degree are they self sufficient?

Farming and urban land uses aren't a straight either|or, they're a complex need both.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#22

Post by Joeri »

waihtis wrote: post #5

The EU keep pumping out these absolutely ridiculous green policies that have crippling effects locally. Recently they brought out a new energy efficiency directive which could cause up to 50% (!) of Finnish flats & houses to require sizeable renovations. Brussels have been very effective in transforming a useful economic union into a centrally managed dystopian nightmare that a lot of people will soon be willing to b…

Most of the criticism of those policies is false or misleading. You always need to be careful to research the actual policy instead of the media soundbite as the two usually diverge quite a bit.

There are perverse incentives at work. When the EU does something right the national politicians usually take credit (when they convert a EU directive to local law), and when a national politician is struggling with a local problem, often of their own creation, they will blame the EU. It was generally perceived as harmless to use the EU as the scapegoat, but since Brexit showed there are real harms some of the politicians have dialed it back. Not all though.

Which is not to say the EU does nothing wrong, but I find the standard of policymaking at the EU level usually exceeds that at the local level.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#23

Post by Dalewyn »

cornholio wrote: post #13
holoduke wrote: post #4

If you ask yourself what the possible benefits are for dutch people. Absolutely nothing. Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Next. These datacenters are huge energy consumers in an already scarse market. Drives prices up. Nobody wants to live close to these ugly heavily guarded places. At the same time the Netherlands faces a housing crisis often…

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

[flagged]

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#24

Post by digitalengineer »

The datacenters are mostly air cooled but also use massive amounts of water when it gets warmer. Exactly during the times that f the year when citizens and farmers are called upon to use less water. How much? Independent studies showed up to 4 times more then Microsoft claimed. Furthermore the water they put back in the local lakes contains some unknown kind of chemical. So yeah I get why locals and farmers might be upset. https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/tech/artikel/5326566/datacenter-mic...

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#25

Post by tfourb »

waihtis wrote: post #5

The EU keep pumping out these absolutely ridiculous green policies that have crippling effects locally. Recently they brought out a new energy efficiency directive which could cause up to 50% (!) of Finnish flats & houses to require sizeable renovations. Brussels have been very effective in transforming a useful economic union into a centrally managed dystopian nightmare that a lot of people will soon be willing to b…

This is a negotiating position (!) by the EU Parliament, not a finished regulation or decree.

Regarding the actual content: If adopted as proposed (which is unlikely), it would force owners of the 30% of least energy efficient houses (compared to the national, not EU-wide, housing stock) to upgrade their houses to come in line with the next higher energy efficiency class – by 2033, so ten years from now.

I own several buildings, both quite old (1960s), as well as brand new (net-positive energy). Improving an existing building in the worst energy efficiency class to come in line with the proposed standards is in most cases an expense in the low five figures, which (at least in Germany) will be subsidized with up to 50% of the costs. Lower energy consumption will in most cases pay for the renovation within a few years. Many of the measures (i.e. new heating source and radiators, new windows) would have to be done on those houses anyway, because the old systems reach their end of life.

So what are people complaining about, exactly?

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#26

Post by Why_O_My »

defrost wrote: post #21
cornholio wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

Let them eat datacentres indeed. The counterpoint here is what gross tonnage per annum does the population of the Netherlands consume .. and in the event of supply chain disruptions, should (say) NATO hiccup, to what degree are they self sufficient? Farming and urban land uses aren't a straight either|or, they're a complex need both.

60 percent of dutch meat is exported, we can do with a whole lot less.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#27

Post by mtts »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #14
cornholio wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

> most of agriculture are ecologically disastrous monocultures drenched in herbicides and fertilizers. In the EU they use substantially less pesticides and fertilizers than we do in the US, and have as good or better yields.

Maybe that’s just setting a low bar.

Dutch agriculture is anything but a bucolic idyl, instead consisting of very large industrial operations owned by an ever decreasing number of companies that produce vast amounts of food for export using imported feed and plowing the manure that remains, truly stupendous amounts, into the soil thereby rendering it effectively dead.

Large tracts of the province of Drente, formerly poor and backward and hence, in a way, pretty, have been taken over by lily plantations (yes, the flower) that are absolutely drenched in pesticides.

Most food crops are grown in enormous greenhouses that take monstrous amounts of energy to heat and that are lit up 24 hours a day to increase yields, making it difficult for people in surrounding villages to sleep. They are automated as much as possible and the work that can not be automated is done by underpaid immigrant workers living in horrible conditions.

So, yes, Dutch agriculture has “as good or better yields”, but it’s still ecologically disastrous.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#28

Post by masklinn »

digitalengineer wrote: post #24

The datacenters are mostly air cooled but also use massive amounts of water when it gets warmer. Exactly during the times that f the year when citizens and farmers are called upon to use less water. How much? Independent studies showed up to 4 times more then Microsoft claimed. Furthermore the water they put back in the local lakes contains some unknown kind of chemical. So yeah I get why locals and farmers might be…

The farmers are mostly giant moaning hypocrites. They’re the cause of the nitrogen crisis.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#29

Post by Scarblac »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #10
jpollock wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nitrogen run-off can be a major pollutant in waterways. It can either be over-fertilization, or cow dung and urine. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6024564/ https://www.epa.gov/nutrientpollution/sources-and-solutions-... .

While nitrogen run-off is a large problem in many parts of the world, that's not what is being referred to here. This is about air pollution from their diesel farm equipment (and likely things like heating systems for greenhouses and animal barns etc.)

No, it's mostly about ammonia from lifestock.

The "nitrogen" problem is about NO2, NO3 and NH3, where most of the NO is from transport and industry, but the NH3 is from bio industry.

Huge factory-like pig and poultry farms. The ammonia gets in the air, spreads and hugely enriches the soil of nature that can't handle that. And way too much manure that is spread out over grass land and runs off into surface water and groundwater.

We import a lot of animal feed and artificial fertilizer, then the N in those ends up in our nature.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#30

Post by elsjaako »

Animats wrote: post #3

Terrible article. "Nitrogen, produced by cars, agriculture, and heavy machinery used in construction, can be a dangerous pollutant, damaging ecosystems and endangering people's health." Huh? Nitrogen? But since 2015, the country has also witnessed the arrival of enormous “hyperscalers,” buildings that generally span at least 10,000 square feet". They may have obtained that definition from here.[1] That's not a big da…

Nitrogen refers to several nitrogen containing compounds. I think the proper term is "reactive nitrogen", and the main ones are NOx and NH3.

These cause problems with biodiversity in dutch nature, and the problem has been in the dutch news for so long they no longer explain the term.

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