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Neil Young is right — piracy is the new radio

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Re: Neil Young is right — piracy is the new radio

#61
Its an interesting viewpoint, and one that is probably very true.

People often hear pirated material and like it so much they immediately purchase it. Not only that one album, but even sometimes substantial amounts of the artist's back catalogue. Which was and still is kind of the point with music radio.

Same with movies.

I wonder how much cash piracy actually generates as substantial income -- quite a bit I believe. And probably more than it denies. Quite a lot of people are exposed to material they would never have encountered, like it and pay up for it.

Re: Neil Young is right — piracy is the new radio

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about something like kickstarter, for music? The artist will only release if a certain threshold is reached.. Then the released music is completely "free" to share as people please. The artist is compensated as they see fit - they set the price in the first place, and also can use it to justify part of the price (to compensate for recording, hosting etc.). "Piracy" then serves to generate rep to prove that they…

That might work for established artists like Pearl Jam, but consider Pearl Jam in the early 90s. They made enough money to retire off their first album. Under the kickstarter model, they wouldn't have been able to earn anywhere near that much money as no one had heard of them outside of Seattle before their first album release.

It's a lot easier to get heard now.

Was making enough to retire their goal? Making enough to keep making music as much as they can seems like enough for a lot of musicians. If it could reach that level, I think it would be a "success".

Re: Neil Young is right — piracy is the new radio

#63
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would probably work pretty well, if the artist can prove himself in a short video, and then ask for money so he can make a music video and do it all with more professional equipment.

Why would they want to do music videos? A music video is just an add, which just happens to cost more than the product to produce, and is entertaining enough that people actually watch them. People watch informercials too. Nobody buys their favorite music video (unless it's The Wall). They buy the CD, because all they really care about is the music.

Because it's fun, creative, connects with fans on a different level to just music.. not to mention some acts have built careers just on self-made youtube videos.

Re: Neil Young is right — piracy is the new radio

#64
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would probably work pretty well, if the artist can prove himself in a short video, and then ask for money so he can make a music video and do it all with more professional equipment.

Why would they want to do music videos? A music video is just an add, which just happens to cost more than the product to produce, and is entertaining enough that people actually watch them. People watch informercials too. Nobody buys their favorite music video (unless it's The Wall). They buy the CD, because all they really care about is the music.

I beg to differ.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Various-Artists-Warp-Vision-Videos/d...

Re: Neil Young is right — piracy is the new radio

#65
post #50
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? The industry has changed. It's no longer possible to make outrageous profits by selling copies with tremendous markups. So people increase the price for live events. Other people pay them. The world changes. Life goes on. I mean, what do you want? Time to stop? Progress to end? Change to be abolished? This isn't actually a joke. Lots of people with a vested interest in the current extent of intellectual prop…

Comparing people scared of change in IP rights to slave owners is a bit over the top. Can we try and keep discussions about this stuff serious and intellectually honest?

Uh, the point was that the definition of "property" not only changes over time, but that it can change quite radically.

The idea seemingly lost on you is that while property in some sense has always been fundamental to civilized orders, it has encompassed very different things in different times and places. Indeed, this remarkable flexibility may be the key to its endurance. And this vital flexibility is EXACTLY what anti-reformists try to obscure, deny, ignore, or otherwise wish away when discussing IP.

In their conception the invention of the Internet is irrelevant. They portray the current scope of property rights as rigid, fixed, ever-lasting, and absolutely supreme. And this particular stalling tactic is nothing new. In fact it's appeared time and time again - really, any time that society has evolved in a way that demands a fundamental reconsideration of what is and is not going to be viewed as private property, with its protection provided by the full force of the state.

Of course, the people who take the absolutist view don't like to discuss this history in detail. And why would they? Saying that the current configuration of rights - which evolved over time - cannot be allowed to evolve any further is a conspicuously indefensible position. So when absolutists raise the issue of "property rights" they are not trying to add anything to the conversation. To the contrary, they are attempting to shut it down. The hope is that residual deference to the once-sensible bounds will kick in reflexively, and people will suddenly stop talking about things that are certain to harm their economic interests and / or social standing if discussed openly.

And that pattern has been a consistent problem every time society has felt the need to redefine property rights. When confronted by the kinds of dishonest and self-serving assholes who would try to shut down or derail conversations of this nature, it's important for people to recognize who and what they're dealing with, and what kinds of tactics will be used against them. It's equally important for them to remember just how threatening and powerful open conversation really is, and why it's protected by the 1st Amendment.

I maintain that the conversation surrounding property rights in America circa 1850 is likely to contain an enormous number of parallels with the conversations surrounding IP today. For people looking for a roadmap on how to handle the recurrent problem of inflexible absolutists, it's a fine source. And it's not the only place where they can find echoes of the same losing arguments about maintaining outdated but profitable arrangements. Indeed, I strongly suspect that close variants of the same arguments will appear in every case where the scope of "property" has become a bone of contention.

Regardless, if you still think there is anything "unserious" or even "dishonest" about this perspective, please elaborate.

Re: Neil Young is right — piracy is the new radio

#66
post #65
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing people scared of change in IP rights to slave owners is a bit over the top. Can we try and keep discussions about this stuff serious and intellectually honest?

Uh, the point was that the definition of "property" not only changes over time, but that it can change quite radically. The idea seemingly lost on you is that while property in some sense has always been fundamental to civilized orders, it has encompassed very different things in different times and places. Indeed, this remarkable flexibility may be the key to its endurance. And this vital flexibility is EXACTLY what…

> Regardless, if you still think there is anything "unserious" or even "dishonest" about this perspective, please elaborate.

Yes, what you wrote here:

> They're the same backwards looking people who said "but what about property rights" when it came to freeing slaves.

To me the comparison is too direct and is therefore inflamatory and distracts from your point. It takes the conversation in a Godwinish direction. Oh, also, it's factually incorrect given that the slavery people were mostly white southerners who have been dead over 100 years, and many of the IP people are wealthy coastal types who probably are fairly "progressive" in their politics in other ways, if you look at Hollywood as an example, superficial though they may be in their outlook.

The whole "intellectual property" thing, in any case, really derives from two things: 1) the "moral rights" to control something you brought into being, and 2) that artificial property is a good solution to the public goods problem in certain cases, if the needs of consumers and producers are properly balanced (currently I do not deem that to be the case): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good

Re: Neil Young is right — piracy is the new radio

#67
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't work in radio, I'm not a radio historian, so there's a good chance I'm violently wrong- but my pet theory is that advertising killed radio in the US. You have to fit into a small number of surprisingly rigid categories in order to participate in the big money advertising campaigns, and if you don't have those, you're liable to go dark. There are exceptions, like the Pacifica network and oddities like KPIG, bu…

You paint a pretty bleak picture. Does anybody have any examples of USA radio that is intelligent, artist focused, youth oriented, community driven, ad free, subscription free, streaming on-line, etc? There are plenty to choose from on tunein.com but I'm looking for highlights. Sorry if this is heading too far from the topic.

KDHX here in St. Louis. Check it out online: http://kdhx.org/

NPR and KDHX are the only radio stations I listen to. The rest of them are literally unbearable.

edit: I used to really like XM radio a few years ago, but it was a subscription based service. And I haven't really listened to it much in a few years, so I don't know where it's at currently.

Re: Neil Young is right — piracy is the new radio

#68
post #66
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, the point was that the definition of "property" not only changes over time, but that it can change quite radically. The idea seemingly lost on you is that while property in some sense has always been fundamental to civilized orders, it has encompassed very different things in different times and places. Indeed, this remarkable flexibility may be the key to its endurance. And this vital flexibility is EXACTLY what…

> Regardless, if you still think there is anything "unserious" or even "dishonest" about this perspective, please elaborate. Yes, what you wrote here: > They're the same backwards looking people who said "but what about property rights" when it came to freeing slaves. To me the comparison is too direct and is therefore inflamatory and distracts from your point. It takes the conversation in a Godwinish direction. Oh,…

And calling people "intellectually dishonest" isn't inflammatory?

More to the point, I was asking you if you saw anything unserious and dishonest about my perspective as a whole. And that perspective is not summed up in the single line you extracted. Nevertheless, you felt you could justify a personal attack on the integrity of another by citing this one line in isolation, as though it were a complete summation of the broader argument.

I think you need to be careful with this "intellectually dishonest" tag, my friend. This may be a case of what Peter says about Paul says more about Peter than it does about Paul.

In the meantime, I maintain my position: the Civil War era remains a rich source of examples showing how humans respond when changing norms about what can and cannot be considered property threaten the economic interests of those who are likely to lose their status. Even if the bone of contention is different, the point (which you seem hell-bent on missing) is that the reactions are very much the same.

Indeed, being able to see those reactions in a very different context is essential to recognizing their underlying patterns, and the unifying elements. You, on the other hand, seem to be saying "No! Regardless of the parallels, they CANNOT BE DISCUSSED! No No No No! This is OFF LIMITS!!!!

To which I say, oh go grow a pair.

Re: Neil Young is right — piracy is the new radio

#69
post #68
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regardless, if you still think there is anything "unserious" or even "dishonest" about this perspective, please elaborate. Yes, what you wrote here: > They're the same backwards looking people who said "but what about property rights" when it came to freeing slaves. To me the comparison is too direct and is therefore inflamatory and distracts from your point. It takes the conversation in a Godwinish direction. Oh,…

And calling people "intellectually dishonest" isn't inflammatory? More to the point, I was asking you if you saw anything unserious and dishonest about my perspective as a whole. And that perspective is not summed up in the single line you extracted. Nevertheless, you felt you could justify a personal attack on the integrity of another by citing this one line in isolation, as though it were a complete summation of th…

I didn't call you as a person dishonest, I called one portion of your comment dishonest, and I stand by that.

There's no way I could judge you or your character via one offhand comment on a web site, but I can certainly say that I find comparing intellectual property to slavery ridiculous.

Most of your comment was pretty well reasoned, which made the inflammatory bit irritating as it, IMO, dragged the rest down.

Perhaps a more neutral approach: "what has been considered property through the ages has changed" would have worked better than directly comparing supporters of IP to slave owners.

Re: Neil Young is right — piracy is the new radio

#70
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue of compensation for the artist never seems to come up in these conversations. Neil Young can charge $75 for his cheapest concert tickets. So record sales mean very little to him. For younger artists this is not the case. > but they won't pay any money for something that they don't know whether or not they will like it. people bought albums for decades without knowing what songs were on the album. I don't se…

You know that old aphorism "If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it, did it make a sound?" For "younger artists" that is code for 'nobody knows who they are.' And that is a very important concept to internalize if you want to understand the economics of information. Lets say you offer to sell someone an 800 page hardcover book about a wizard for $35 [1]. If they have never heard of the author they are going…

I was listening to NPR where they said the record company made about $8m off Kate Perry's record sales, whereas they were responsible for most of the marketing expense (promoting to radio stations, etc). There was another show about how much it costs record companies to try to get a summer hit, and they didn't have much to show after [1]

There's now a trend for record companies to reposition themselves as marketing agencies (which is what they actually do) where they take a cut of the total revenue (including song writing and concert sales) called 360 contracts. [2]

It'd be interesting if the entire process of songmaking were like a creative commons non-commercial project. You start with a song writer, different people doing mixes, and then when it reaches a stage where it can be monetized all people involved get paid. The question is "how to hell do you monetize this?" iTunes? High Fidelity mp3 ? Live performances? Humble bundle $1 compilations?

[1]Songs of Summer http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/07/11/137705590/the-frid...

[2] Kate Perry's Perfect Score http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/01/20/145466007/katy-per...

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