GM plans to phase out Apple CarPlay in EVs, with Google's help • Hacker News Board

Re: GM plans to phase out Apple CarPlay in EVs, with Google's help

#301

Post by MBCook » Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 9:11 PM UTC

agloe_dreams wrote: post #225

sircastor wrote: post #108

I worked in Infotainment for an Automotive OEM for 7 years. There were two major concepts behind the resistance to CarPlay and Android Auto. The first was branding. Not being able to control the experience that the user, especially because it was so visible of a component in the cab. The second was (and this is anecdotal, I was not directly involved in the conversations) the way that Apple and especially Google were…

Yup. I think the thing most people need to see at this point is that almost every car maker will follow GM at this. They would rather the Google deal where they get a cut of the pie and some control rather than the nothing they get with Carplay/AA.

So this is an anecdote, but…

Last summer Apple said 78% of new car buyers want CarPlay. Not “or Android Auto”. CarPlay. (Note: may be US specific, don’t know)

Someone tried to look it up and ask around. And the basic idea is that new cars are more expensive than ever and going up. And that means if you’re buying a new car (as opposed to used) you have more money. And, at least in the US, that correlates highly with iPhone ownership.

If that’s true, that means that dropping CarPlay (even if you kept Android Auto, which GM isn’t) you’d be heavily annoying the vast majority of your buyers. Not 51%, but 78%.

I don’t think you can remove CarPlay and succeed at this point. Consumer demand is too strong. Now add in Android Auto diehards.

Re: GM plans to phase out Apple CarPlay in EVs, with Google's help

#302

Post by genmud » Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 9:11 PM UTC

helmsb wrote: post #240

Regardless of whether you prefer Apple or Google, the benefit of phone projection is that you can get a good experience with relatively low specs from the head unit because the heavy lifting is done by the phone which can be upgraded independently of the car. Even powered by Google, the infotainment system is going to age like milk since you’ll be locked into hardware that will be midrange at best, several years old…

I actually got rid of a chevy truck for this precise reason. GMs design choices in their god-awful infotainment system was so annoying I couldn't stand using it. I got rid of that thing within a year and traded it for a F150, which had a significantly better UI and support for apple carplay (even though it required it to be plugged in).

Its like nobody ever used their vehicles before they shipped it.

Some of my favorite anti-patterns (circa 2015):

- No way to remote start the vehicle with the remote (required a subscription and a phone app to remote start the car) - No way to enter navigation destinations in head unit (required subscription and phone app to do any GPS) - If you didn't have a phone, you had to use a phone based service - Bluetooth connections would randomly stop working - Bluetooth controls would only work from head unit requiring you to remove your hand from the wheel - Some faults would require you to turn off the vehicle, open the door and wait 30 seconds for the head unit to reboot

Overall, 0 / 10... would never own another vehicle from them again.

Re: GM plans to phase out Apple CarPlay in EVs, with Google's help

#303

Post by dkarbayev » Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 9:19 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #146

imwithstoopid wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This will also be an opportunity for other car manufacturers to differentiate themselves: “We still support CarPlay” but I doubt CarPlay will even end up as the lowest-common-denominator...one of GM or Mercedes or whoever will try to get their system good enough that they can license it to other car companies...so CarOS or whatever will be the default if your car brand doesn't have a bespoke experience I like Andro…

Cars and small electronic devices are not comparable. GM is only doing this because they see an avenue to charge recurring fees, which smartphones obviated.

I don’t think it’ll work anyway. BMW has been stubborn on CarPay integration by not supporting it or asking a hefty price for “CarPlay preparation” (which is, as far as I’m concerned, mostly installing a WiFi antenna on the head unit), all because it would have cannibalized their revenue from map updates and other remote services (e.g. real-time traffic information). But in the end, BMW gave up and CarPlay is included in all models by default starting 2022 or 2023, don’t remember exactly.

Re: GM plans to phase out Apple CarPlay in EVs, with Google's help

#304

Post by chaostheory » Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 9:25 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #283

Tagbert wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many vehicles, CarPlay and Android Auto appear within a panel on the overall interface, they don't have to take over the whole UI.

All vehicles. Apple announced the total UI takeover option (though I’m not sure if it works today) but no car maker supports it on a shipping vehicle. Many have announced interest but at this point we don’t know if it will ever be available, even if only on some kind of ultra-luxury car.

There’s always the aftermarket. If CarPlay stops being a standard option, that is the first thing I will do with a new car: replace the AV

Re: GM plans to phase out Apple CarPlay in EVs, with Google's help

#305

Post by gpanders » Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 9:32 PM UTC

ydant wrote: post #286

flyingcircus3 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reactions in this thread are interesting, because they seem to imply that this is the final straw that has convinced us to not buy Chevrolets and Buicks, as opposed to the last 30+ years of of their products being generally terrible.

My household has 3 EV Chevy cars - Volt, Bolt, Spark. Buying another Chevy EV at some point was certainly a possibility. I even use Android, and don't personally care that much about Apple support, and I'm still unhappy about this and it's making me less interested in Chevy for the next car.

It's not mentioned in the headline, but GM also intends to phase out Android Auto, so this is not specific to iPhones.

>General Motors plans to phase out widely-used Apple CarPlay and Android Auto technologies that allow drivers to bypass a vehicle's infotainment systems, shifting instead to built-in infotainment systems developed with Google for future electric vehicles.

Re: GM plans to phase out Apple CarPlay in EVs, with Google's help

#306

Post by doctornoble » Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 9:41 PM UTC

This really seems like the opposite direction auto manufacturers should be taking. Lean in hard to a common API design for displays and negotiate with Apple/Google on theming (like Apple Watch where some companies get custom watch faces), but leave the UX to Google/Apple

I was uninterested in CarPlay until my last car had it. Now it’s a requirement for any car purchase. Similarly I was uninterested in wireless CarPlay (how hard is it to connect a Lightning cable) until my next car had it. I’d be a little more lenient on no wireless, but it is really convenient.

Re: GM plans to phase out Apple CarPlay in EVs, with Google's help

#307

Post by CharlesW » Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 9:50 PM UTC

doctornoble wrote: post #306

This really seems like the opposite direction auto manufacturers should be taking. Lean in hard to a common API design for displays and negotiate with Apple/Google on theming (like Apple Watch where some companies get custom watch faces), but leave the UX to Google/Apple I was uninterested in CarPlay until my last car had it. Now it’s a requirement for any car purchase. Similarly I was uninterested in wireless CarPla…

> This really seems like the opposite direction auto manufacturers should be taking.

For sure. GM is operating based on fear here — just as carriers were terrified of being "dumb pipes", vehicle makers are terrified of being "dumb boxes". Somehow GM is under the delusion that Google is their friend, and that alienating Apple users won't impact vehicle buying decisions. GM will learn the hard way that both are incorrect.

Re: GM plans to phase out Apple CarPlay in EVs, with Google's help

#308

Post by Tagbert » Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 9:54 PM UTC

rhtgrg wrote: post #271

helmsb wrote: post #240

Regardless of whether you prefer Apple or Google, the benefit of phone projection is that you can get a good experience with relatively low specs from the head unit because the heavy lifting is done by the phone which can be upgraded independently of the car. Even powered by Google, the infotainment system is going to age like milk since you’ll be locked into hardware that will be midrange at best, several years old…

Yes, removing CarPlay is not a great move, and is rightfully being bashed in this thread -- but these kinds of OEM integrations are far beyond a smartphone subsitute, especially given what's coming down the pipe for auto. As you allude to in your comment already, CarPlay is a "projection", a one-way deal -- whereas most of these integrations make heavy use of data from car sensors, which enables a lot of high fidelit…

And I don't need that level of integration. The passive CarPlay UI projection is exactly what I want. It's not all about driving to charging stations. That is a rare occurrence.

Re: GM plans to phase out Apple CarPlay in EVs, with Google's help

#309

Post by glhaynes » Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 10:04 PM UTC

orf wrote: post #253

kemayo wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to, but a few years ago (2019 I think?) they changed so that it's a properly separate display. The only thing you can't do is separately play audio from the phone (because the CarPlay unit is basically serving as its output while it's connected), or use your maps app to do something different while the navigation is running on the CarPlay unit (because CarPlay is just a view into the phone's apps, and so they…

CarPlay is awesome, but I found the lack of being able to use maps very restricting. If you’re driving with someone who is co-piloting then them being able to use your phone to scout ahead for stops, restaurants etc is really useful. We ended up using Google Maps for this while navigating with Apple Maps.

It's strange to me that Apple Maps is the only app I know of that works this way.

Re: GM plans to phase out Apple CarPlay in EVs, with Google's help

#310

Post by rektide » Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 10:29 PM UTC

helmsb wrote: post #240

Regardless of whether you prefer Apple or Google, the benefit of phone projection is that you can get a good experience with relatively low specs from the head unit because the heavy lifting is done by the phone which can be upgraded independently of the car. Even powered by Google, the infotainment system is going to age like milk since you’ll be locked into hardware that will be midrange at best, several years old…

I 90% agree, but also, there's a ton of informational & sensors & systems that need control. With physical knobs/dials/switches/buttons disappearing, the main console now has a lot more obligations than just infotainment like it used to, and it's not clear that letting a phone run the show is really viable with what's afoot, given the scope of systems the display has to control. Wait, sorry. It's not clear how we'd get sufficient data to the phone to let it try. We just don't have clear starting places to let the phone act as a good puppet-master over such an expansive complex multi-screened roving multi-functional device.

This is actually a very interesting ubiquitous & pervasive computing challenge. If we do want to let the phone be the main thing in control, it has to access & orchestrate a lot more systems than it has.

Back in 2012, the BMW/Land Rover/Jaguar folk (I think they were one entity then?) car-maker had started making interesting demos based on an already longstanding very interesting user-first user-sovereign ubicomp project, Webinos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webinos, still a halcyon model of what connected-computing might have been (but with almost no uptake)), & were making really interesting API-based integrations, over effectively VPN networks directly to their cars. I don't remember whether things like HVAC control or lighting were integrated (I suspect so), but there were definitely a lot of examples of radar/lidar integration, engine information (tach, fuel remaining, battery voltages, et cetera). This >10 year old example is by far the most pro-user most open-possibility system we've ever done, by a country mile. https://www.wired.com/2012/10/bmw-webinos/

One of the most interesting things to me was just a couple short years latter, 2015, with the Jeep hack. The emphasis was that someone could gain access to your car network & do bad things, but this was the first time we'd ever gotten a real peak into a car network & it was fascinating. The often-underlying QNX OS it turns out- even though it is not Linux- runs a bog-standard-ish FreeDesktop DBus service bus, and all car systems are exposed over DBus. ALL car services. So like, one could fully automate & script their own car, via the Jeep hack (which IIRC typically required some physical access to break in via). It would be utterly trivial to script a bunch of nice lighting & sound effects, to roll back the moon-roof & dynamically set a mild thumping VU meter lighting, to dynamically roll the EQ low & high,... the possibilities were so open, over such a common well known easy to control system. The Jeep Hack was the most exciting look at what life could be like, but it was mostly used to sell Fear Uncertainty & Doubt, to insure even less people had access to cars.

Somewhere someplace sometime this trend needs to turn around. Somewhere someplace sometime we need to start figuring out how to pipe relevant systems to the user's agent. Rather than forever letting the car take-over more and more, forever reducing agency, forever shrinking what is possible.