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Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

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Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#171

Post by dreamcompiler »

jandrese wrote: post #123
sorenjan wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla switched from lead-acid to 12V lithium ion their S and X models in 2021. James May had some issues with his Tesla when the 12V battery went flat. https://insideevs.com/news/546087/tesla-liion-12v-auxiliary-... https://youtu.be/NsKwMryKqRE

Tesla is also switching to 48V for the accessories.

This was the best news I heard at Tesla investor day. It should simplify and cut the cost of the in-cabin wiring.

When Sandy Munro interviewed Elon Musk a couple of years ago he said "Why are you still using 12v stuff in the cabin?"

Musk's answer was that the automotive supply chain was entirely geared around 12v equipment and they had to take advantage of that to get to market quickly.

I'm glad those days are almost over.

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#172

Post by xsmasher »

samtho wrote: post #158
sorenjan wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's good, but is that what's used in "used car-batteries with degraded capacity"?

Used car batteries are conventional unsealed, lead-acid batteries. Lithium-iron-phosphate (aka LiFePO4, LFP) batteries is a different battery chemistry altogether. It is touted as the answer to a deep-cycle, lithium-based electrical storage that the traditional lead acid batteries occupy.

I think they mean used EV batteries - EV batteries that are at the end of their useful life in cars.

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#173

Post by samtho »

xsmasher wrote: post #172
samtho wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Used car batteries are conventional unsealed, lead-acid batteries. Lithium-iron-phosphate (aka LiFePO4, LFP) batteries is a different battery chemistry altogether. It is touted as the answer to a deep-cycle, lithium-based electrical storage that the traditional lead acid batteries occupy.

I think they mean used EV batteries - EV batteries that are at the end of their useful life in cars.

That makes more sense.

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#174

Post by TaylorAlexander »

lazide wrote: post #148
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heavier cars are more dangerous in collisions. The extra weight of a big battery requires a bigger frame to carry it, bigger suspension, wider tires, and so on. I’m not really happy that some of these monster EVs are approaching 10,000lbs with fast 0-60 times. It’s like a kinetic missile that can reach a momentum capable of obliterating your average 3000lb compact car in under 5 seconds.

That is pretty much the definition of moving the goal posts?

Actually if I follow the conversation, the first person said “storage density matters”. The second person said “actually it does not because the energy gets recovered”. The follow up said “actually there are other reasons why weight is a problem.”

So the first person never set goal posts around efficiency, that was an assumption by the second person. The first person could always have meant that the collision risks from heavier vehicles are higher, while the second person misunderstood their meaning. No moving of goalposts here.

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#175

Post by dheera »

megaman821 wrote: post #167
dheera wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are only a few metrics. Li-ion is not fantastic in (a) charging cycles and battery depletion or (b) fire safety. It also depends a lot on use case; for example, for home electricity storage (like a PowerWall) I would gladly give up energy density for safety. If there's some battery tech that can handle 50000 charge cycles and completely non-flammable but weighs 100 tons and has 10% of the energy density of Lith…

How often will you fully cycle a home battery? At 100 cycles a year it would take 50 years to deplete a 5,000 cycle battery down to 80%. Another 50 years before it was 50%. There is no way the casing would be fully intact and the electronics even be functioning after that long. Current LFP batteries should last multiple decades as a home battery. The already have low flammability. The price is getting more affordable…

> The already have low flammability.

Low rates of spontaneous thermal runaway, sure, but they still are extremely flammable if externally ignited or physically damaged. A house fire that could otherwise be put out might turn into a full disaster. An earthquake that physically damages the battery pack could cause a fire that would have otherwise not happened. A flood or minor tsunami might allow for early evacuations and most lives saved, but now the entire town is on fire instead of just water damaged, if every house has a massive lithium pack in their basement.

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#176

Post by skupig »

_nalply wrote: post #115
ngrilly wrote: post #18

Why is it called anode-free when it still has a copper collector with a special coating? Yes, they removed the graphite, but they didn’t remote the entire “anode”. Or is it because the collector and the coating are not technically considered as an electrode?

I wondered about that too then I realized what an anodeless battery would really, literally mean: if you charge it, you pump electrons into it, so it gets somewhat electrically negative, and if you discharge it, you let the electrons flow out of it. To be pedantic, this is not really anodeless, this would be just a battery having only one electric contact switching roles between a cathode and an anode. Then I started…

I think (?) that would work as long as your circuit is more negatively charged than your battery and has enough capacitance to keep current flowing- you just have to discharge it later. Maybe with a second, negatively-charged battery...

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#177

Post by robocat »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #171
jandrese wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla is also switching to 48V for the accessories.

This was the best news I heard at Tesla investor day. It should simplify and cut the cost of the in-cabin wiring. When Sandy Munro interviewed Elon Musk a couple of years ago he said "Why are you still using 12v stuff in the cabin?" Musk's answer was that the automotive supply chain was entirely geared around 12v equipment and they had to take advantage of that to get to market quickly. I'm glad those days are almost…

Isn’t there a whole trucking supply chain geared around 24 Volts?

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#178

Post by ksec »

tromp wrote: post #116
DennisP wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are the specs on the Amprius silicon-anode battery, currently shipping in low volume: https://amprius.com/products/ That's better on all the metrics you listed except cost, which it doesn't mention. Whatever their current cost is, it should drop significantly once they complete their factory in 2025. https://amprius.com/facility/ Most of the battery is standard lithium-ion, the anode is a drop-in replacement.

It mentions lasting for 200-1200 cycles, which (besides a suspiciously large range compared to Li-ion's 500-1000 cycles) is not better on all mentioned metrics.

If you have double the energy capacity and the same cycle. Your phone will also last roughly double the time at the same energy usage. That is probably good enough for most things.

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#179

Post by Schroedingersat »

eutectic wrote: post #66
ben-schaaf wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Energy density is ~8 times higher than in 2008 at 1/10th the price. That's more progress than we've made in single-core performance in the same timeframe. Sources: https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1234-apri... https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/evolution-of-... https://mlech26l.github.io/pages/2020/12/17/cpus.html

Any idea why utiliy-scale is so much more expensive than automotive?

Fire control, temperature control, chemical safety systems, daily 2-3C (half hour to 20 minute) charge and discharge rates, industrial grid scale high voltage grid forming inverters. And finally, the auto-makers got to the front of the queue for raw materials before prices spiked (and the ones that do both just take the profit).

Expect more consistent prices in Q3 2023 once the end of the lithium bubble works its way through the system.

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#180

Post by worik »

mabbo wrote: post #91
uoaei wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different battery designs and chemistries are appropriate for different applications. I don't care about how much a battery weighs if it never moves, for example.

I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand, you're right that for different applications having different metrics can be acceptable. Sure, a battery for your home that never moves can be heavy and large and that's okay. But then you have to consider the economics of production. How many of those batteries will you make? What will the factory for them cost to build? And what would it cost instead to just make a bunch m…

Where do flow batteries (fuel cells) fit in those calculations?
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