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Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

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Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#81

Post by kungito »

Feloevo wrote: post #74
mabbo wrote: post #63

Lithium ion batteries set the standard because they have an acceptable level of all the key metrics: energy storage by weight; energy storage by volume; discharge rate; charging rate; production costs. Every single one of these big breakthrough announcements touts how great this new tech is- in just one or two particular metrics. The problem is that Li-Ion batteries are just barely acceptable in all of those metrics.…

There is already a car which uses two battery technologies in parallel. This would also allow you to configure or offer cars optimized for the climate they are being used. I personally also see those news more in 'im 5-10 years' we will have something much better than now.

Which car? You cannot drop something like this without a source

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#82

Post by alkonaut »

uoaei wrote: post #73
mabbo wrote: post #63

Lithium ion batteries set the standard because they have an acceptable level of all the key metrics: energy storage by weight; energy storage by volume; discharge rate; charging rate; production costs. Every single one of these big breakthrough announcements touts how great this new tech is- in just one or two particular metrics. The problem is that Li-Ion batteries are just barely acceptable in all of those metrics.…

Different battery designs and chemistries are appropriate for different applications. I don't care about how much a battery weighs if it never moves, for example.

The powerwall use case will only grow when people get solar panels and when rural areas in countries lacking power infrastructure eletrify. But while that use case doesn't care as much about weight, bulk, charge rate and % capacity as car batteries, in return they are very sensitive to cost and the market will (depending on how cheaply recycling can be done) likely be filled with used car-batteries with degraded capacity.

If you invent a battery that is 2x as large and heavy as current vehicle batteries but half the cost, then you might think you would be able to sell them for stationary storage, but you are then competing with the price of second hand vehicle batteries which may well be half price already.

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#83

Post by jillesvangurp »

MrsPeaches wrote: post #51
jillesvangurp wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right. The company you mention is focusing on the aviation industry. Drones and light airplanes. Weight matters a lot there. To the point where saving weight is worth a lot to manufacturers. Basically every kilo you save is more useful load and range. It's also a very conservative market. Most of the planes in the process of being certified, or already certified (like the Pipistrel trainer) are using batterie…

Who’s the current market leader on EV private pilot planes?

Cessna I guess.They bought Pipistrel recently. There are a few companies getting closer to production with various planes and drones. But realistically, I think volume sales is still a few years out.

Companies like Amprius scaling their high end battery production (like they announced recently) is interesting though.

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#84

Post by greggsy »

pjc50 wrote: post #69
greggsy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H2 has the benefit of being much easier to store, transport and transfer than batteries. It’s able to be stored in small containers and large vessels of any shape. Batteries manufacturing is much more complex. Electricity needs to be transferred from a power station over wires, while hydrogen can be pumped into a vehicle from a bulk source. Sure H2 is dangerous, but so is LNG, and petrol for that matter. 100+ years o…

The bait-and-switch is that while green hydrogen can be made, it very rarely is, and when it is, it's less cost-effective than a battery electric solution. It's almost always a Trojan horse for shifting carbon emissions away from the tailpipe to a refinery where you can't see them quite as obviously.

I think it’s important to frame it within the sociotechnical frameworks that nations are able to operate under.

Introducing this technology will require incremental changes across industry, infrastructure and communities. Today, green hydrogen is out of reach for many economies. Building H2 ecosystems, will almost certainly require initial investment in brown/black hydrogen by burning fossils fuels, which is currently under development in Australia and Japan.

The transition to blue (renewable>LNG>H2) and eventually towards green (renewables>H2O>H2) hydrogen will be slow and will take decades to achieve. Purple (nuclear) hydrogen may be a next logical step for Japan.

It’s simply not possible to replace everything everywhere all at once. We should have gotten onto this two decades ago, so we unfortunately have to make compromises that seem cynical and small on the outset, but are still very difficult to implement and gain consensus.

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#85

Post by pbhjpbhj »

danbruc wrote: post #45
ngrilly wrote: post #18

Why is it called anode-free when it still has a copper collector with a special coating? Yes, they removed the graphite, but they didn’t remote the entire “anode”. Or is it because the collector and the coating are not technically considered as an electrode?

Technically speaking you can not get rid of the anode unless you also get rid of the cathode as anode and cathode switch places between charging and discharging. It is just by convention that in case of batteries the role while discharging is used, I would guess carried over from non-rechargeable batteries, but the anode would better be called the negative electrode.

A battery with no poles would be a curious beast!

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#86

Post by sanderjd »

bluGill wrote: post #80
uoaei wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different battery designs and chemistries are appropriate for different applications. I don't care about how much a battery weighs if it never moves, for example.

True (within limits), but the largest use of batteries is batteries that move. Utility scale power storage is the only significant use of battery that doesn't move. (there are others, but they are not probably large enough to develop a battery for, and so will be stuck with whatever they can get from the other markets)

Yes, but stationary energy storage is itself a large use case.

There are also different performance profiles within EVs, where different tradeoffs might make sense. Though, like you, I'm somewhat skeptical that any non-lithium chemistries will break through in that space.

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#87

Post by pbhjpbhj »

nordsieck wrote: post #36
gonzo41 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well H2 is a hedge. It's a green-ish fuel and has potential as a replacement to lng for japan. but more power to toyota. can't wait to get an electric hilux. hopefully it's cheap.

> Well H2 is a hedge. It's a green-ish fuel and has potential as a replacement to lng for japan. Is it though? Can't be a hedge if it doesn't really work well fundamentally. Although I'll admit to being largely ignorant of the Japanese car market. IMO, it'd be much more practical to invest in automotive LNG tech and combine that with synthesizing LNG from the atmosphere (or at least developing the tech to do so). Pra…

Strikes me that H2 made from excess solar panel output, at source, might become a thing. If you have enough solar for your needs then you're over-producing when the sun is at its peak. With feed in tariffs being low it makes sense to use this -- and hydrogen vehicles are an option.

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#88

Post by pbhjpbhj »

pjc50 wrote: post #69
greggsy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H2 has the benefit of being much easier to store, transport and transfer than batteries. It’s able to be stored in small containers and large vessels of any shape. Batteries manufacturing is much more complex. Electricity needs to be transferred from a power station over wires, while hydrogen can be pumped into a vehicle from a bulk source. Sure H2 is dangerous, but so is LNG, and petrol for that matter. 100+ years o…

The bait-and-switch is that while green hydrogen can be made, it very rarely is, and when it is, it's less cost-effective than a battery electric solution. It's almost always a Trojan horse for shifting carbon emissions away from the tailpipe to a refinery where you can't see them quite as obviously.

If battery material costs go high (it they're otherwise hard to come by) then it seems like hydrogen could find its niche?

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#89

Post by nordsieck »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #87
nordsieck wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well H2 is a hedge. It's a green-ish fuel and has potential as a replacement to lng for japan. Is it though? Can't be a hedge if it doesn't really work well fundamentally. Although I'll admit to being largely ignorant of the Japanese car market. IMO, it'd be much more practical to invest in automotive LNG tech and combine that with synthesizing LNG from the atmosphere (or at least developing the tech to do so). Pra…

Strikes me that H2 made from excess solar panel output, at source, might become a thing. If you have enough solar for your needs then you're over-producing when the sun is at its peak. With feed in tariffs being low it makes sense to use this -- and hydrogen vehicles are an option.

> Strikes me that H2 made from excess solar panel output, at source, might become a thing.

Why is that better than putting it back into the grid and/or putting it into a battery?

Re: Solid-State Battery Has 2x the Energy–and No Anode

#90

Post by ericpauley »

jackmott42 wrote: post #41
Tade0 wrote: post #6

Solid state might share the fate of Betamax. There was a post a while ago about a small scale battery manufacturer named Amprius, which reported 500Wh/kg batteries: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35276709 Thing is, the company is producing 450Wh/kg batteries NOW and they're planning on scaling up their manufacturing capacity to 5GWh: https://www.convertingquarterly.com/ConvertingQuarterly/Indu... This solid sta…

EVs are already very heavy, and when the model 3 switched to LFP it got even heavier. This mass has lots of subtle consequences that aren't always appreciated. Like accelerated tire wear (which Tesla owners notice after they buy) and increased particulate pollution from that, increased road wear, increased danger to pedestrians and cyclists, etc. So, I'm less excited about LFP. There are a number of ideas in the work…

I’ll know we’ve made it when you can buy a 1000kg EV Miata.
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