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A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

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Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#101
post #42
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are definitely people who have ADHD and are simply not diagnosed, as well as people who are "afraid of" medication for reason X. For people who are unsure about this, though, ADHD having-ness is not 100% equivalent to "being unable to do your job with focus". Like parent mentions, ADHD is fundamentally about low executive control. So if you find yourself often saying things and immediately regretting it (often…

Yeah, I periodically think about the stigma ADHD had when I was a kid in the late-80/90s and wonder how many people have some degree of impact on their life but have resisted a formal diagnosis and treatment. Some people used to talk about medication like it was a lobotomy.

This was me.

Unironically, my first few times actually finally trying medication not helping me very much is what made me get over the stigma. When it simply... didn't help much, rather than making me a pill-addicted raving addict, something clicked.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#102
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds a lot like me. I do get a TON done, am always working hard, but I can’t single thread to save my soul. I have a tendency to work on 6+ tickets at the same time which has in the past clashed with what management has wanted - clean single threaded work that looks nice on a kanban board. For instance I have a project right now that in linear time has taken about a week but has taken well over a month in actu…

>> clean single threaded work that looks nice on a kanban board It's pretty unfair to characterize the demand as a desire to look nice, when in your next sentence you admit that a week task has taken you more than a month. I don't give a shit about the kanban board but I do care about work in progress. There's no value until you finish, and I mean done-done. What you consider multi-threading is micro time slicing, wi…

> when in your next sentence you admit that a week task has taken you more than a month

The word 'admit' suggests you had to drag it out of him, that he's hiding slow progress behind a smoke screen of busy work like opening many tickets. That month-long background task wouldn't have had any work done otherwise so it's unfair to call it delayed.

> Until you adopt my old-fashioned approach of single threaded work

That's the problem with people who think they're technical managing the actual workers, they always end up micromanaging and slicing things into shapes that don't fit. The world isn't single threaded and changes usually aren't entirely unrelated.

You should change your management style to simply specifying the business goals you want and asking for as many to be completed as possible. Let your team do what works best.

> The funny thing is you probably consider your approach agile

No, because all those labels just encourage people to pick a style and do that thing regardless of circumstances. In a real project I've got to coordinate everything with someone. I can't push code without a review, I can't code to a team's API without sending them the spec for review, etc. During these times I could facebook like some others do, but instead I "multi-task" by doing other work.

Also, it's not very obvious from simple metrics like number of lines of code committed which work is hard and which is simple fluff which can be fixed without a distraction. A change to a logger might percolate through every method call and appear big and complex despite having been made in seconds by the IDE. If I was implementing a new feature I'd probably want to update the logging style first rather than coding to the old standard, so I'd make the big change (probably covered by another ticket) because I'm already in there and have to test that stuff anyways.

> There's no value until you finish, and I mean done-done.

As I said, there are a lot of down periods in that process. It feels like you think you know some deep secret ("only delivered features count!") that you think you can't get people to acknowledge.

This is actually like day-one stuff in engineering school, that you need to measure benefit of your work in delivered advantages so done isn't done until it's in use. But there's a lot of other stuff as well, such as not delivering something until it's safe to use even if it works in test scenarios.

You should have a discussion with your team about your idea and brainstorm where it fits into a full product development cycle and what has to be considered. I imagine you will find they don't discount it, but they have a wider view of the process than your business focused one, and that they have to balance all of this while also managing your perceptions.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was diagnosed ADD (or what would now be called inattentive ADHD) in my 30s. But the testing results were not clear, in part because I'd developed a lifetime of coping mechanisms and skills that allow me to behave in non-ADHD ways through force of will. If I look back at my primary school report cards, they are a mixture of both gifted and below-average performance with teacher comments like "Does amazing work when…

I'll be 60 in a few months and looking back I've tended to think that anxiety has been the main thing that held me back in my career, but I can also relate to the post above where they say they do great in the early days of a job/project, but as time goes on find it more and more difficult to stay engaged. I guess I would think this is caused by anxiety in my case, but now I'm wondering if maybe there isn't more goin…

Yes, my understanding is that some people present with anxiety (and/or depression), and that anxiety will become the focus of treatment by their doctor or psychologist, when in fact the anxiety stems from the undiagnosed ADHD. For these people, treating the anxiety alone isn't very effective, compared to getting an ADHD diagnosis and treatment plan that also has a positive impact on the anxiety symptoms.

Anecdotally I've seen this scenario play out in my own family.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you said is correct. And just to be clear, in the US it is technically very straightforward in most states and you can fire people for any (non-protected) reason or for no reason whatsoever without any notice. However, there is always a risk that people will sue the employer by claiming that they were fired for reasons other than underperformance (gender, race, religion etc). Employers in the US don't care…

> Employers in the US don't care about giving people the opportunity to improve, it's more about documenting the underperformance so there is an airtight case against the employee - nobody can claim a protected reason if the underperformance is very well documented. Actually, these efforts often don't help much. As a rule, if you find yourself doing elaborate cover-your-ass excessive, you probably are doing something…

Wait was it or wasn’t it? Presumably it was- I guess it’s down to what would the judge think?

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#105
post #10

ADHD is probably the problem under this behaviour. Can’t complete tasks and underperform but want to help other, be part of the team. People with ADHD have developed coping behaviour to fit in but have very low control on their executive functions, they can’t keep working on something that doesn’t catch their attention. It’s very hard to understand for someone who don’t have the problem "why can’t they just do it!" W…

Heh, its been fun finding out that I have adhd, then finding out I have sleep apnea. Before I was just lazy.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#106
post #10

ADHD is probably the problem under this behaviour. Can’t complete tasks and underperform but want to help other, be part of the team. People with ADHD have developed coping behaviour to fit in but have very low control on their executive functions, they can’t keep working on something that doesn’t catch their attention. It’s very hard to understand for someone who don’t have the problem "why can’t they just do it!" W…

Oh god, this is so much me. I seem physically incapable of executing any task beyond 80%. Otherwise I work very quick and thorough, so it takes a long time for others to catch on. Medication helps a lot, but not in that regard. No matter what, I cannot explain this issue to anyone, not even therapists. It's sad to think I'll never progress beyond what I currently do because of this.

>I seem physically incapable of executing any task beyond 80%.

I think this is what happens to me. I have a bunch of home improvement projects that I started, did 80%ish of, then stopped and started another one. It's not a problem at work because I graduated to manager at some point.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#107
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High performance work is a partnership between manager and contributor. Employees are not helpless. You don’t have to wait for the manager to do the right thing. You can tell them what to expect from you. You are leaving power on the table by taking a passive stance

> You are leaving power on the table by taking a passive stance No everyone is able to be assertive.

Not everyone is able to perform at a high level

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#108
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That works better in comic books than software. As an example, I have a coworker who is pretty good in terms of domain knowledge, and can push out work pretty fast, but he does things like write migrations that insert rows of data one at a time in a loop, or adds three layers of almost do-nothing wrapper functions around business logic that doesn't need to be abstracted. He's made a lot of useful contributions but th…

This reflects more poorly on your engineering leadership than your coworker imo. Where are the guardrails? Why aren't his migrations going through a pull request where you can review and say "this should be a batch insert?" If PRs are in place but nobody speaks up, why is the culture afraid of pointing these things out?

I can’t speak for the GP but I am currently in a position where we have the PR, we make the comments, the fix happens (kind of), but then it all repeats the next time. It’s tiring for the (technical) PO and the senior dev doing most of the reviews (me). It does not seem tiring for the employee. He seems like he could enjoy doing this forever, often commenting about how much he’s learning.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employers in the US don't care about giving people the opportunity to improve, it's more about documenting the underperformance so there is an airtight case against the employee - nobody can claim a protected reason if the underperformance is very well documented. Actually, these efforts often don't help much. As a rule, if you find yourself doing elaborate cover-your-ass excessive, you probably are doing something…

Wait was it or wasn’t it? Presumably it was- I guess it’s down to what would the judge think?

> Wait was it or wasn’t it?

Doesn't really matter. The problem is the choice for the employer is really:

A risk of paying 3 x whatever (sometimes crazy) number the employee is asking for

versus

Certainty of paying 1 x whatever we settle out of court for

Risk aversion kicks in, and so the company settles.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#110
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this all the time, and these workplace-focused descriptions of "phases of underperformance" really apply to me, but I don't think it's ADHD. I can focus on all sorts of things when I try, and when I look up symptoms of ADHD, maybe just 5% apply to me. For me, I've joined new teams and crushed it for a few weeks where it was at least expected performance, but then I quickly fall off a cliff for seemingly no rea…

I think that one SlateStarCodex post about modern office work tending to make any normal person exhibit strong ADHD symptoms was on to something.

Common trope wrt autism as well. It’s not really accurate. There’s plenty of high performing office workers.
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