A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice” • Hacker News Board

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#71

Post by NickC25 » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 2:58 PM UTC

I think what gets lost in this discussion but should be worth noting is team dynamics. As I'm not an engineer, things are probably different for me and in the teams I've been in.

Sometimes the nice person can take the heat off the jerk, or can better interact with other teams or employees so that the jerk can do what they are good at, and not be bothered by others. Part of what I did as a PM was to bring my talented IC teammates coffee, and make sure the rest of the company didn't bother them during crunch time. All requests came to me. The ICs were generally nice too, but unable to communicate politely when push came to shove. That's where I came in. Am I a good engineer? Hell no, I'll never be one, and I'm fine with that. I can, however, get others to like me, and respect what I have to say - which brings its own benefits when it comes to team-to-team interaction dynamics. Nobody likes the asshole, but I'm happy to cover for the asshole because that's part of what needs to get done to make sure everyone is on the same page.

Sometimes, nice people just need to be in better roles. Engineering is probably not one of them. Nice people might suck at certain important things, but everyone plays different roles in large and small teams, and sometimes contributes in a less direct or noticeable way, but still important. Put them in the roles they can thrive in, damnit!

All that said, there's a difference between a brilliant jerk and someone who lacks social tact and is a genuinely unpleasant, disrespectful person to be around. I have no problems with the straight-shooting brilliant jerk. The my-way-or-the-highway-and-oh-by-the-way-go-fuck-yourself person who might be good but is completely lacking in social norms and can't get along with anyone no matter how good, screw them.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#72

Post by scruple » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 3:00 PM UTC

donatj wrote: post #22

alfor wrote: post #10

ADHD is probably the problem under this behaviour. Can’t complete tasks and underperform but want to help other, be part of the team. People with ADHD have developed coping behaviour to fit in but have very low control on their executive functions, they can’t keep working on something that doesn’t catch their attention. It’s very hard to understand for someone who don’t have the problem "why can’t they just do it!" W…

This sounds a lot like me. I do get a TON done, am always working hard, but I can’t single thread to save my soul. I have a tendency to work on 6+ tickets at the same time which has in the past clashed with what management has wanted - clean single threaded work that looks nice on a kanban board. For instance I have a project right now that in linear time has taken about a week but has taken well over a month in actu…

I often have multiple tickets in-flight but it's because some pieces are blocked and/or I'm waiting on a gate to open or I have some scheduling situation I'm dealing with.

Today and tomorrow I'm working on a long running (started 2 weeks ago, will run for the coming months if not the remainder of this year) legacy system modernization project.

On Monday, I have maintenance work I'm scheduling that is either going to take an hour or 2 days and I won't know til I press the proverbial button.

These two are on top of all of the unplanned work that comes up, some of which I'm seeing this morning before I technically start work. For the unplanned work, I'll have to double back and make tickets to capture what was done at the end of the day, but right now that looks like 3 separate pieces of work today.

So, I think its safe to say that I'll be grappling with 4 tickets today, with a fifth in the back of my mind, and making sure the product team is on top of communication around the internal outage the team will have on Monday.

I also have to get my kids to daycare/preschool, get myself to physical therapy, and then pick the kids up.

I feel like I probably do have undiagnosed ADHD but maybe I'm always so busy moving from task to task that it doesn't have a lot of opportunity to allow, for want of a better word, procrastination to really set in?

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#73

Post by zamnos » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 3:01 PM UTC

donatj wrote: post #22

alfor wrote: post #10

ADHD is probably the problem under this behaviour. Can’t complete tasks and underperform but want to help other, be part of the team. People with ADHD have developed coping behaviour to fit in but have very low control on their executive functions, they can’t keep working on something that doesn’t catch their attention. It’s very hard to understand for someone who don’t have the problem "why can’t they just do it!" W…

This sounds a lot like me. I do get a TON done, am always working hard, but I can’t single thread to save my soul. I have a tendency to work on 6+ tickets at the same time which has in the past clashed with what management has wanted - clean single threaded work that looks nice on a kanban board. For instance I have a project right now that in linear time has taken about a week but has taken well over a month in actu…

Missed Potential is the name of the band featuring everyone with ADHD who was called "smart but unmotivated" by their teachers, never got tested, and never derived the benefits of treatment. You're free to do whatever you want, but if someone in a wheelchair refused a simple surgery that would fix their problem, and said that people trying to help them walk were "jamming them into workflows", you'd really think that maybe the person in the wheelchair should get looked at.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#74

Post by zamnos » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 3:02 PM UTC

davidktr wrote: post #43

alfor wrote: post #10

ADHD is probably the problem under this behaviour. Can’t complete tasks and underperform but want to help other, be part of the team. People with ADHD have developed coping behaviour to fit in but have very low control on their executive functions, they can’t keep working on something that doesn’t catch their attention. It’s very hard to understand for someone who don’t have the problem "why can’t they just do it!" W…

Oh god, this is so much me. I seem physically incapable of executing any task beyond 80%. Otherwise I work very quick and thorough, so it takes a long time for others to catch on. Medication helps a lot, but not in that regard. No matter what, I cannot explain this issue to anyone, not even therapists. It's sad to think I'll never progress beyond what I currently do because of this.

Have you tried different medication? Your psychiatrist may be able to help with that missing 20%.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#75

Post by gavinmckenzie » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 3:05 PM UTC

tr3ntg wrote: post #63

alfor wrote: post #10

ADHD is probably the problem under this behaviour. Can’t complete tasks and underperform but want to help other, be part of the team. People with ADHD have developed coping behaviour to fit in but have very low control on their executive functions, they can’t keep working on something that doesn’t catch their attention. It’s very hard to understand for someone who don’t have the problem "why can’t they just do it!" W…

I hear this all the time, and these workplace-focused descriptions of "phases of underperformance" really apply to me, but I don't think it's ADHD. I can focus on all sorts of things when I try, and when I look up symptoms of ADHD, maybe just 5% apply to me. For me, I've joined new teams and crushed it for a few weeks where it was at least expected performance, but then I quickly fall off a cliff for seemingly no rea…

I was diagnosed ADD (or what would now be called inattentive ADHD) in my 30s. But the testing results were not clear, in part because I'd developed a lifetime of coping mechanisms and skills that allow me to behave in non-ADHD ways through force of will. If I look back at my primary school report cards, they are a mixture of both gifted and below-average performance with teacher comments like "Does amazing work when he applies himself".

That sudden lack of motivation or drop in performance on tasks that we previously excelled at is also classic ADHD.

Anxiety is often a comorbidity, stemming from a feeling of inconsistent failure and lack of control. Though my understanding is that anxiety may be more present in women sufferers of ADHD where the disease manifests differently than in men.

All of this to say that you may feel like a DSM definition of ADHD doesn't map onto your experience, but that may be because you're an adult who has a lifetime of adaptation.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#76

Post by zamnos » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 3:08 PM UTC

stavros wrote: post #27

alfor wrote: post #10

ADHD is probably the problem under this behaviour. Can’t complete tasks and underperform but want to help other, be part of the team. People with ADHD have developed coping behaviour to fit in but have very low control on their executive functions, they can’t keep working on something that doesn’t catch their attention. It’s very hard to understand for someone who don’t have the problem "why can’t they just do it!" W…

I've been there, and it's hell. You waste your day staring at a screen, trying to get yourself to do something , but you can't, so in the end you both get absolutely nothing done and you waste all your time on it. It would almost have been better if I just said "fuck it" and didn't work at all. I'd have exactly the same output, but at least I'd have my free time back. If you're in this position, I recommend you work…

If you're that executively dysfunctional to the point where it's affecting your career, then it's time to escalate the problem beyond what your immediate manager can provide (but do talk to them about this), and find a mental health professional that can help. everybody has their off days but if those days turn into months and then days and then years, it might be burnout, at which point you'll still want a mental health professional to help guide you through the troubles but it could be something else. like ADHD.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#77

Post by gavinmckenzie » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 3:14 PM UTC

scruple wrote: post #72

donatj wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds a lot like me. I do get a TON done, am always working hard, but I can’t single thread to save my soul. I have a tendency to work on 6+ tickets at the same time which has in the past clashed with what management has wanted - clean single threaded work that looks nice on a kanban board. For instance I have a project right now that in linear time has taken about a week but has taken well over a month in actu…

I often have multiple tickets in-flight but it's because some pieces are blocked and/or I'm waiting on a gate to open or I have some scheduling situation I'm dealing with. Today and tomorrow I'm working on a long running (started 2 weeks ago, will run for the coming months if not the remainder of this year) legacy system modernization project. On Monday, I have maintenance work I'm scheduling that is either going to…

A need to multi-task is 100% ADHD. Our (inattentive) ADHD brains are like a car engine that will stall if it's allowed to idle, and so we have to keep the revs up in order for it to keep running. For us inattentive ADHD people, the meds have the effect of raising our engine's idle speed so we don't have to keep our foot on the pedal through multi-tasking just to stay engaged.

It's easy to rationalize this behaviour, and it can feel amazing when you're on top of everything, but it can take a toll and end up in burn-out or disaster when all those (to mix metaphors) plates you've kept spinning eventually fall.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#78

Post by prometheus76 » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 3:20 PM UTC

tr3ntg wrote: post #63

alfor wrote: post #10

ADHD is probably the problem under this behaviour. Can’t complete tasks and underperform but want to help other, be part of the team. People with ADHD have developed coping behaviour to fit in but have very low control on their executive functions, they can’t keep working on something that doesn’t catch their attention. It’s very hard to understand for someone who don’t have the problem "why can’t they just do it!" W…

I hear this all the time, and these workplace-focused descriptions of "phases of underperformance" really apply to me, but I don't think it's ADHD. I can focus on all sorts of things when I try, and when I look up symptoms of ADHD, maybe just 5% apply to me. For me, I've joined new teams and crushed it for a few weeks where it was at least expected performance, but then I quickly fall off a cliff for seemingly no rea…

A frequent refrain from parents of kids diagnosed with ADHD: "My kid doesn't have problems with attention! He can play a video game for 10 hours straight! I have to tell him to go to the bathroom!"

It's actually misnamed and many professionals are trying to shift the name to "Executive Function Disorder".

The dysregulation swings both ways: can't focus on uninteresting things, but hyperfocus on interesting things.

You might want to do some more research, because the resulting anxiety that you also mentioned is almost always co-morbid with ADHD.

--a fellow diagnosed-as-an-adult ADHD guy who didn't know that was my problem until I was in my mid 30s.

P.S. another common sign: "Johnny is a delight to have in class, but he's not working to his potential." or "Johnny gets all of his work done quickly and it's stellar work, but then he is a frequent distraction to those around him." or "Class clown who is not working to potential."

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#79

Post by prometheus76 » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 3:26 PM UTC

zamnos wrote: post #73

donatj wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds a lot like me. I do get a TON done, am always working hard, but I can’t single thread to save my soul. I have a tendency to work on 6+ tickets at the same time which has in the past clashed with what management has wanted - clean single threaded work that looks nice on a kanban board. For instance I have a project right now that in linear time has taken about a week but has taken well over a month in actu…

Missed Potential is the name of the band featuring everyone with ADHD who was called "smart but unmotivated" by their teachers, never got tested, and never derived the benefits of treatment. You're free to do whatever you want, but if someone in a wheelchair refused a simple surgery that would fix their problem, and said that people trying to help them walk were "jamming them into workflows", you'd really think that…

As someone who was diagnosed in my 30s, used medication for about eight years, then got off of it for about three years, I'm going to offer another viewpoint. I am grateful for the clarity I got with the meds, but something always felt off and I definitely talked too much.

I finally decided to get back off meds, and my anxiety really subsided. By that time, I had built a pretty effective external structure of calendar, reminders, etc. to handle the ADHD aspects of my brain, but without the anxiety to also deal with (which ramped up my ADHD exponentially), the ADHD is totally manageable and I don't feel so out of sorts and, for lack of a better term, "domesticated" into being what corporate America thinks they want.

I get along just fine, and I attribute a lot of that to finding a job I enjoy and having a boss who is patient with my unpredictable, but important contributions.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#80

Post by stuckinhell » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 3:29 PM UTC

CuriouslyC wrote: post #57

probably_wrong wrote: post #54

In his "Make good art" speech [1] Neil Gaiman mentions a third axis in the good-bad/nice-jerk graph, namely, "delivers the work on time". I'm not sure how good it would work for software development, but the comic book world has plenty of successful artists like that - their art is okay at best, but they have plenty of work because they reliably hit their deadlines. Assuming your worker is not entirely terrible, I al…

That works better in comic books than software. As an example, I have a coworker who is pretty good in terms of domain knowledge, and can push out work pretty fast, but he does things like write migrations that insert rows of data one at a time in a loop, or adds three layers of almost do-nothing wrapper functions around business logic that doesn't need to be abstracted. He's made a lot of useful contributions but th…

Manager here, I can tell you sometimes the things engineers care a lot about like algorithms and the fastest/correct ways to do things are not important.

Domain knowledge is typically far more valuable. The real world of business has tons of weird legal/finanical/workflows edgecases. I'll always hire a mid engineer with strong business domain knowledge over a very technical engineer with no strong businss domain knowledge. My firm only has one team that's an exception to this rule.