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A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

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Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#21

Post by watwut »

ResearchCode wrote: post #17
xivzgrev wrote: post #15

This article is good but imho misses a big potential issue: the manager’s perception of performance. Managers, especially newer ones can have lots of biases. Someone you think is underperforming may actually be doing ok, they’re just not approaching the work in the way or at the exact same performance you or superstar Sam does. Not everyone is a rockstar, and if you insist on that you are going to have trouble scalin…

Mostly agree but HR would have no clue about that.

I agree. And I am not even trying to bash HR, it is just that individual developer, artist, writer or whatever is something they are not equipped to evaluate.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#22

Post by donatj »

alfor wrote: post #10

ADHD is probably the problem under this behaviour. Can’t complete tasks and underperform but want to help other, be part of the team. People with ADHD have developed coping behaviour to fit in but have very low control on their executive functions, they can’t keep working on something that doesn’t catch their attention. It’s very hard to understand for someone who don’t have the problem "why can’t they just do it!" W…

This sounds a lot like me. I do get a TON done, am always working hard, but I can’t single thread to save my soul.

I have a tendency to work on 6+ tickets at the same time which has in the past clashed with what management has wanted - clean single threaded work that looks nice on a kanban board. For instance I have a project right now that in linear time has taken about a week but has taken well over a month in actuality because I am constantly jumping around.

I literally don’t even mean to, I try to stay on task but will get an idea for a difference project and switch branches without even thinking about it.

I don’t know that I would want to medicate it, I don’t have a problem with it and my net output is very good even if individual tasks take longer than “they should”. I see it as just an alternate way of thinking/working.

I just wish we’d stop trying to jam people into workflows. You’re missing out on potential.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#23

Post by tyingq »

jasode wrote: post #12
wun0ne wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firing someone in the case of underperformance (particularly outside of the US) is rarely a straightforward process. You typically need to give the under-performing employee at least a chance to improve and meet the required standard - otherwise the hiring company will be leaving themselves open to a wrongful dismissal suit.

>You typically need to give the under-performing employee at least a chance to improve and meet the required standard - otherwise the hiring company will be leaving themselves open to a wrongful dismissal suit. In the USA where most states are "at will" employment, a "PIP" (Performance Improvement Plan) or providing multiple chances for an employee to become better isn't required by law: https://www.google.com/search…

"some industries add a PIP as a social norm"

I suspect they often do the PIP as legal protection, documentation they can produce later if needed. Even in an "at-will" environment, employees can sue for wrongful termination.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#24

Post by darkerside »

donatj wrote: post #22
alfor wrote: post #10

ADHD is probably the problem under this behaviour. Can’t complete tasks and underperform but want to help other, be part of the team. People with ADHD have developed coping behaviour to fit in but have very low control on their executive functions, they can’t keep working on something that doesn’t catch their attention. It’s very hard to understand for someone who don’t have the problem "why can’t they just do it!" W…

This sounds a lot like me. I do get a TON done, am always working hard, but I can’t single thread to save my soul. I have a tendency to work on 6+ tickets at the same time which has in the past clashed with what management has wanted - clean single threaded work that looks nice on a kanban board. For instance I have a project right now that in linear time has taken about a week but has taken well over a month in actu…

The danger is that multitasking like that can make you FEEL like you're getting a ton of things done while you're really just spinning wheels in place. I'm not saying that's what is happening to you. You may have data to back up what you're saying. But there could be a parallel in some cases to moneyball, which exposed how intuition and bias had led to suboptimal decisions through false perceptions.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#25

Post by CM30 »

alfor wrote: post #10

ADHD is probably the problem under this behaviour. Can’t complete tasks and underperform but want to help other, be part of the team. People with ADHD have developed coping behaviour to fit in but have very low control on their executive functions, they can’t keep working on something that doesn’t catch their attention. It’s very hard to understand for someone who don’t have the problem "why can’t they just do it!" W…

> When the job is new, the team is new it’s all very interesting but as routine and boredom set in the get unable to stay on the task. They hate themselves for not doing what they should do and want to do the right thing but are unable. It’s very stressful and often lead to burnout.

I think you basically summarised my own issues with work in the past, and why I seem to burn out so quickly. Wouldn't be surprised if I had ADHD tendencies as well as being on the autistic spectrum, and that explained why I get so sidetracked with different hobbies and jobs and activites rather than being able to stick with one or the other.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#26

Post by chiefalchemist »

danielrpa wrote: post #13
wun0ne wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firing someone in the case of underperformance (particularly outside of the US) is rarely a straightforward process. You typically need to give the under-performing employee at least a chance to improve and meet the required standard - otherwise the hiring company will be leaving themselves open to a wrongful dismissal suit.

Everything you said is correct. And just to be clear, in the US it is technically very straightforward in most states and you can fire people for any (non-protected) reason or for no reason whatsoever without any notice. However, there is always a risk that people will sue the employer by claiming that they were fired for reasons other than underperformance (gender, race, religion etc). Employers in the US don't care…

That documenting is self-fulfilling. It creates a bias. That is, the manager is biased towards fleshing that out, not signs of hope and change. The manager is also biased to covering their own arse, not giving the employee a fair shake.

Yes, there are cases where the employee needs to go. But there are others where that's not exactly true.

All that said, it's a relationship. Life is too short for unhealthy and unproductive relationships. When I find nyself in such situations I update my CV and start looking to move on. Somethings are what they are and not worth the fight.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#27

Post by stavros »

alfor wrote: post #10

ADHD is probably the problem under this behaviour. Can’t complete tasks and underperform but want to help other, be part of the team. People with ADHD have developed coping behaviour to fit in but have very low control on their executive functions, they can’t keep working on something that doesn’t catch their attention. It’s very hard to understand for someone who don’t have the problem "why can’t they just do it!" W…

I've been there, and it's hell. You waste your day staring at a screen, trying to get yourself to do something, but you can't, so in the end you both get absolutely nothing done and you waste all your time on it.

It would almost have been better if I just said "fuck it" and didn't work at all. I'd have exactly the same output, but at least I'd have my free time back.

If you're in this position, I recommend you work with your manager to find work you enjoy, or work with your peers to work on stuff together. It's always been helpful when I was talking to a colleague about doing small chunks of work at a time.

It wasn't even that they were checking up on me, we'd just say "ok I'm going to work on adding this task to CI" "I'll work on this API", and then we synced back an hour later, and that seemed to help me focus.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#29

Post by flappyeagle »

donatj wrote: post #22
alfor wrote: post #10

ADHD is probably the problem under this behaviour. Can’t complete tasks and underperform but want to help other, be part of the team. People with ADHD have developed coping behaviour to fit in but have very low control on their executive functions, they can’t keep working on something that doesn’t catch their attention. It’s very hard to understand for someone who don’t have the problem "why can’t they just do it!" W…

This sounds a lot like me. I do get a TON done, am always working hard, but I can’t single thread to save my soul. I have a tendency to work on 6+ tickets at the same time which has in the past clashed with what management has wanted - clean single threaded work that looks nice on a kanban board. For instance I have a project right now that in linear time has taken about a week but has taken well over a month in actu…

The problem with a lot of stuff in flight and nothing shipped is it’s extremely expensive. You’re basically holding onto inventory that isn’t able to be sold. It isn’t people jamming workflows, it’s economics.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#30

Post by flappyeagle »

xivzgrev wrote: post #15

This article is good but imho misses a big potential issue: the manager’s perception of performance. Managers, especially newer ones can have lots of biases. Someone you think is underperforming may actually be doing ok, they’re just not approaching the work in the way or at the exact same performance you or superstar Sam does. Not everyone is a rockstar, and if you insist on that you are going to have trouble scalin…

High performance work is a partnership between manager and contributor.

Employees are not helpless. You don’t have to wait for the manager to do the right thing. You can tell them what to expect from you. You are leaving power on the table by taking a passive stance

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