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Sex and the citizenship process

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Re: Sex and the citizenship process

#31

Post by sokoloff »

jMyles wrote: post #12
sokoloff wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the proposed practical alternative to this “stupid system”?

I mean, I'm sure many people have different thoughts, but if you're specifically asking my views on borders, I very much prefer completely open borders. This is a huge country with plenty of room, friendly people, fresh water, and lots of work to be done. I have no interest in my state deciding whether my new neighbors are wanted.

That view is shared by only about 1 in 3 American voters, which is why we have a system like this to balance the genuine personal interests of US citizens who marry non-citizens against the desires of the majority to have at least some level of immigration and naturalization controls.

Re: Sex and the citizenship process

#32

Post by incompatible »

mths wrote: post #29
incompatible wrote: post #17

Citizenship laws are arbitrary. I live in Australia, with a non-married partner, and we have very similar backgrounds, both being born in the same country (not Australia). But she is an Australian citizen, since it turns out that her mother was Australian and emigrated. I could now also become an Australian citizen, by obtaining a partnership visa, but it's a slow and expensive process involving a lot of intrusive pa…

> I don't lose much besides the right to vote. I think you mean the obligation to vote. :) Aren't you paying more in taxes and/or losing out on social benefits if ever desired? Say you want to buy a house, larger stamp duty? Have kids, less/no subsidy? Something something medicare benefits?

I can't get certain benefits like for unemployment, but can sign up to Medicare (and the age pension, in future.) Well, I can always turn to crime if I run out of money, right? Resident non-citizens can buy houses, but pay an extra tax, but there's an exemption for New Zealanders. The Australian citizen partner can help with the stamp duty reduction for first-home buyers.

Re: Sex and the citizenship process

#33

Post by notch898a »

cturner wrote: post #30
jMyles wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I'm sure many people have different thoughts, but if you're specifically asking my views on borders, I very much prefer completely open borders. This is a huge country with plenty of room, friendly people, fresh water, and lots of work to be done. I have no interest in my state deciding whether my new neighbors are wanted.

(not an american citizen or resident) Open borders is not a serious public policy position for a western nation. Western culture is difficult to bootstrap, and requires effort to maintain. In the US, civics are taught to all of your children through the education system. People have shared mythologies about freedom and duty and senses of right and wrong. Even with this, there are strong frictions between traditions.…

Americans prefer to breed our own gangs rather than import them.

Re: Sex and the citizenship process

#34

Post by deznu »

incompatible wrote: post #23
outworlder wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll just live here as a temporary visa holder instead Be glad that your temporary visa doesn't expire. That's... not common in other countries.

Yeah, it's special for historical reasons, the 444 visa. It's temporary in the sense that it would expire if I left Australia, but I could get another one if I came back. The other downside for any non-citizen is getting deported (or being denied reentry) if the government thinks you are undesirable for any reason. Edit: and I just want to make clear that I'm not criticising the Australian government in any way with…

To be honest, you're realistically taking a lot of risk. The second the Australian government decided to change/rework how the visa works, you could be in a bit of trouble. I would personally move towards getting something more stable. Multiple citizenships are usually quite nice to have anyway.

Re: Sex and the citizenship process

#35

Post by bombolo »

plantain wrote: post #24
incompatible wrote: post #17

Citizenship laws are arbitrary. I live in Australia, with a non-married partner, and we have very similar backgrounds, both being born in the same country (not Australia). But she is an Australian citizen, since it turns out that her mother was Australian and emigrated. I could now also become an Australian citizen, by obtaining a partnership visa, but it's a slow and expensive process involving a lot of intrusive pa…

I thought getting an Australian partner visa for my German girlfriend was an expensive and arduous process - a few solid weeks putting together a big binder of all our information, but for 'only' 10,000$AUD and a 3 month wait, she's now a Permanent Resident. As I understand, it would not be possible in to do the reverse in Germany or most other European countries without waiting many years and getting married.

In europe, excluding scam countries like malta, you don't have to pay such high fees to get processing.

Re: Sex and the citizenship process

#36

Post by ajmurmann »

jMyles wrote: post #12
sokoloff wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the proposed practical alternative to this “stupid system”?

I mean, I'm sure many people have different thoughts, but if you're specifically asking my views on borders, I very much prefer completely open borders. This is a huge country with plenty of room, friendly people, fresh water, and lots of work to be done. I have no interest in my state deciding whether my new neighbors are wanted.

Open borders always gets framed as crazy, unrealistic and extreme when I advocate it. I think it's really that way because of where the overton window is right now. Bryan Kaplan does a fabulous job in his book Open Borders to address all concerns about open borders from all angles: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42867903

Re: Sex and the citizenship process

#37

Post by incompatible »

deznu wrote: post #34
incompatible wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's special for historical reasons, the 444 visa. It's temporary in the sense that it would expire if I left Australia, but I could get another one if I came back. The other downside for any non-citizen is getting deported (or being denied reentry) if the government thinks you are undesirable for any reason. Edit: and I just want to make clear that I'm not criticising the Australian government in any way with…

To be honest, you're realistically taking a lot of risk. The second the Australian government decided to change/rework how the visa works, you could be in a bit of trouble. I would personally move towards getting something more stable. Multiple citizenships are usually quite nice to have anyway.

Hopefully if the Australian government changes the system, they'll grandfather it for existing residents. They've done that in the past, and New Zealanders who arrived before around 2002 are treated as permanent residents.

I do have an EU citizenship as well, and in fact I'd lose that if I became an Australian citizen.

Re: Sex and the citizenship process

#38

Post by ajmurmann »

cturner wrote: post #30
jMyles wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I'm sure many people have different thoughts, but if you're specifically asking my views on borders, I very much prefer completely open borders. This is a huge country with plenty of room, friendly people, fresh water, and lots of work to be done. I have no interest in my state deciding whether my new neighbors are wanted.

(not an american citizen or resident) Open borders is not a serious public policy position for a western nation. Western culture is difficult to bootstrap, and requires effort to maintain. In the US, civics are taught to all of your children through the education system. People have shared mythologies about freedom and duty and senses of right and wrong. Even with this, there are strong frictions between traditions.…

I recommend taking a look at https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42867903. Some core points pertinent to your concerns are:

There is no precedence for lots of folks from ones location suddenly flooding a country just because they now can. There were huge fears Puerto Ricans would do this. Yet once they got the right to move to US states, only very, very few immigrated. It took up a little more once a Puerto Rican exclave formed somewhere and friends and family started following existing immigrants.

Immigrants typically commit fewer crimes than the native born population.

Re: Sex and the citizenship process

#39

Post by dragonwriter »

notch898a wrote: post #33
cturner wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(not an american citizen or resident) Open borders is not a serious public policy position for a western nation. Western culture is difficult to bootstrap, and requires effort to maintain. In the US, civics are taught to all of your children through the education system. People have shared mythologies about freedom and duty and senses of right and wrong. Even with this, there are strong frictions between traditions.…

Americans prefer to breed our own gangs rather than import them.

> Americans prefer to breed our own gangs rather than import them.

We breed them and export them, which help exacerbate and sustain a lot of the stability problems in Central America.

Re: Sex and the citizenship process

#40

Post by senectus1 »

incompatible wrote: post #17

Citizenship laws are arbitrary. I live in Australia, with a non-married partner, and we have very similar backgrounds, both being born in the same country (not Australia). But she is an Australian citizen, since it turns out that her mother was Australian and emigrated. I could now also become an Australian citizen, by obtaining a partnership visa, but it's a slow and expensive process involving a lot of intrusive pa…

>I don't lose much besides the right to vote.

The Requirement to vote :-P

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