The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere • Hacker News Board

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#371

Post by chasd00 » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 9:23 PM UTC

YellOh wrote: post #356

muffinman26 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if this aligns with what the GP was trying to say, but this is also one of the groups I would expect to be the most depressed, although I would expect white, middle-aged, middle-classed women to be an even larger demographic. Chemicals/genetics have a lot to do with depression, but for other cases I think depression comes from a feeling of uselessness/lack of purpose. White liberal women have a lot of incomp…

I could see this being a major factor. It reminds me of wealthy white women's "hysteria" / other mental health issues of the past (ex. https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2013/01/16/eternal-hypochondria-o... ). Being neither particularly oppressed nor in the most priveleged group is an interesting position, and I could see this being an important mental health factor. I don't have a strong enough sociological background to co…

I would imagine it parallels the plight of growing up a middle child. Or another analogy from The Simpsons, "but what to do with poor hugo. Too crazy for Boys Town, too much of a boy for crazy town." - Dr. Hibert

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#372

Post by extasia » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 9:24 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #123

thesausageking wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't fit the data though. Dobbs v Jackson was in 2022. The increase starts in around 2012. That's before Trump and the current wave of politicians who are behind Dobbs, etc. In 2012, Obama was President, the Paycheck Fairness Act was passed, Hillary Clinton was Secretary of State, Pelosi had recently been the first woman to be speaker of the house, two women were added to the supreme court, etc.

That's just it: 2012 was the high point, from which the decline is measured. Focus turned to Hillary Clinton, and began the long train of abuse that led to her losing in 2016. Much of that abuse was explicitly misogynist. Misogyny had been deprecated for a long time, but had a resurgence starting right around 2012.

This argument is US-centric and in no way explains the trends seen in the rest of the anglosphere shown in the article..

Why would a teen in Australia care about US law?

Maybe I'm missing something.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#373

Post by chasd00 » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 9:28 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #339

lsllc wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you can blame problems such as climate change, economic issues -- every generation had its own existential crisis: WW2, Korea, Vietnam, numerous recessions and until 1990, recent generations lived under the specter of the atom bomb. I think it's social media, that's what's really changed: Every single teenager is now comparing themselves against every other kid in the world instead of just their local pe…

I think social media - which is not so much about media but about performative competition - is just part of the problem. Reality for kids seems so much more competitive and ruthless in every way. And there are so few resources available to them to help them deal with it. At the same time opportunities are shrinking and pressure to perform is increasing. It's not enough to be adequate, you have to be outstanding in l…

when my kids were born i was amazed how competitive getting into a good pre-school was. Then i was amazed how competitive getting in to a good elementary school was and now middle school. One year out and we're already discussing strategy for getting in to a good high school.

When I was a kid you went to whatever school was in your neighborhood. On the other hand, when i was a kid my parents had no idea what a good school event meant.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#374

Post by anarticle » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 9:28 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #341

WalterBright wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also been a corresponding dramatic drop in the number of teens who have had any sort of job. Not many things are as fulfilling as doing a job and getting paid for it. I remember when I realized I was making enough money that I could pay all my bills and no longer needed anything from my dad. It felt really good. For me that was the dividing line between being a child and an adult.

Not many things are as fulfilling as doing a job and getting paid for it. Sorry, I don't get fulfillment from a job, nor do I base my personality on it. A job is a thing that I have to do to live and do some stuff I like. That's it, nothing more. I'd never do actual work unless I had to, and I'd never work full time if I didn't have to. I'm never going to be motivated to work harder for a fancy car if I can have a re…

>base my personality on it

Your words, not gp. A part-time job as a teen helps you navigate and integrate into society. Part-time helps you get out of your bubble and interact with the public, who may be different to your upbringing.

It is immediately clear to me who has had a job as a teen (read: service job), and who has not in my experience. This may be a form of reverse-classism on my part, but learning to sweep a floor and take out the trash for a few months during summer is not going to KILL YOUR DREAMS which seems to be the meme. In fact, you could view it as service to your community!

While I was working 10h/w during high school, I was also making DOOM wads and learning BSP algo in my extremely ample free time.

Also note, that many skills gained in these jobs can directly translate to irl skills. For me, working at a deli taught me how to make food, be on time, measure crap, clean things, interact with people not in my generation, and more!

Maybe you don't get fulfillment, but as a teen with nothing going on it was nice to have some extra money and essentially a playground to learn new skills on someone else's time. It wasn't to live, it was to prime the pump for later in life.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#375

Post by SoftTalker » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 9:32 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #351

WalterBright wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also been a corresponding dramatic drop in the number of teens who have had any sort of job. Not many things are as fulfilling as doing a job and getting paid for it. I remember when I realized I was making enough money that I could pay all my bills and no longer needed anything from my dad. It felt really good. For me that was the dividing line between being a child and an adult.

It used to be good, but my guess is a modern kid, particularly a middle class one, doesn't get as much out of it. Minimum wage has stagnated, but also people these days have their eyes on internships that will secure a career. There's simply no point in pursuing burger-flipping if you can't find a way to hang around a law firm or a hedge fund, and those firms won't care at all that you worked hard in a menial job. Wh…

Nobody pays minimum wage anymore, at least not if you want to hire anyone.

$12/hr is the absolute lowest I've heard of in the past year or two.

Employers do value experience at menial jobs, at least for their own entry level positions. Any work experience is better than none.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#376

Post by nibbleshifter » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 9:35 PM UTC

sacnoradhq wrote: post #333

obscurette wrote: post #218

I'm a father of teen kids, teacher and educator. I don't think that there is a single reason here. All mentioned things contribute – social media pressure, climate problems, economical crisis etc. But I'd like to add another one – declining quality of education. I see increasing number of teens depressed because they don't have teachers and their education isn't good enough for jobs they'd like to get in future. And…

I have potentially a bazillion questions: 0. How do kids socialize without devices these days? 1a-b. Do they meet new people like them and/or unlike them? 2. Do they go outside and explore the world nearby? 3a-b. Do they get in the same or different kinds of trouble as past generations of kids? 4a-d. What are the fundamental social values they share that differ from 1-4 generations ago? 5a-c. Do they have as much cur…

I can answer a some those. Have family members who are teachers, friends who work with youth, etc and this whole thing comes up a lot.

I've used your numbering system to organize answers.

2. Less than previous generations.

There's simply far less places that will let kids just hang out.

Until a certain age its likely CPS will be called and police will be involved if your kids are out exploring, and after that age said kids hanging out is deemed antisocial and undesirable... So private security or the police hassle them.

3a-b: some the same, some different. Underage drinking/smoking/fucking is down, illicit drug use is down somewhat, but smoking's been replaced by vapes, and the drugs are different - often pharmaceuticals (real or counterfeit) such as xanax, etc.

Actual antisocial behavior is way down, but perceived antisocial behavior is up. Behaviours that previously were deemed largely benign (kids hanging out) are deemed unwanted. As per answer 2.

4a-d: the kids tend to be significantly more "tolerant" than previous generations. Make of that what you will.

5a-c: yes? They are still curious as all fuck, but work ethic is a funny animal.

Most traditional avenues for teenagers to "work" (outside of academics) are being closed off due to labour rules, liability, etc.

So a lot of younger people try make money online, have some kind of hustle. This ranges across the board of legality, morality, etc. Be it flipping clothes on Depop, dubious schemes involving dropshipping or selling knockoff designer gear online, selling artwork/crafts, trying to become an influencer/streamer/whatever... There's massive pressure to try monetize any hobby.

Resilience? Its teenagers. Some are hard as nails, some are drips.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#377

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 9:41 PM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #375

lordnacho wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to be good, but my guess is a modern kid, particularly a middle class one, doesn't get as much out of it. Minimum wage has stagnated, but also people these days have their eyes on internships that will secure a career. There's simply no point in pursuing burger-flipping if you can't find a way to hang around a law firm or a hedge fund, and those firms won't care at all that you worked hard in a menial job. Wh…

Nobody pays minimum wage anymore, at least not if you want to hire anyone. $12/hr is the absolute lowest I've heard of in the past year or two. Employers do value experience at menial jobs, at least for their own entry level positions. Any work experience is better than none.

$12/hr is at or under the minimum wage in 19 of 54 US jurisdictions (50 states + DC, VI, PR, CNMI), so depending on where you are, that’s…not that significant.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#378

Post by synergy20 » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 9:43 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #347

synergy20 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up poor, it has nothing to do with private school to me at all, it's all about struggling parents still convinced their kids to do their best, and put education first as a family group effort. most of the poor here still is relatively much better off than those from under-developed countries, plus our school provides free lunch, many programs will waive fees if you're economically disadvantaged, etc. It's not…

> most of the poor here still is relatively much better off than those from under-developed countries Education wise, middle class in a developing or under developed country will still beat poor in a developed country even if the latter have more money than the former. Culture has a lot to do with it, a lot has to do with the latter's parents not teaching current parents the same thing that the former's were taught.…

I also observed there are many economically disadvantaged parents driving their kids to charter schools for better education, that made a huge difference, as their home campus is filled with lots of students that are not that into education. point is family might be the key for success, more than private-school or giving-more-money,etc.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#379

Post by sbirch » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 9:43 PM UTC

EntrePrescott wrote: post #324

That article (i.e. the author) seems to have a weird understanding of mathematics: > "Note that there are two ways to calculate increases. We can measure an increase in absolute terms, e.g., a rise from 5% to 15% of teens with a diagnosis is a ten percentage-point increase, or we can report it in relative terms, e.g., a rise from 5% to 15% is a 300% increase, relative to the anchor point" Uhm… maybe in an "alternativ…

I think you've mixed up relative and absolute differences. Both of your examples are in terms of absolute percentage points (pp, sometimes ambiguously labeled %), but relative changes are measured in percent (%). 300% relative difference just means 300/100 = 3x.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#380

Post by SoftTalker » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 9:47 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #190

grammers wrote: post #80

The article has a point, but there's no proof for cause & effect. A completely different explanation could be that our societies are so advanced by now that we can finally listen to mental illnesses and take them seriously - while in the past people just had to 'function', no matter what.

> A completely different explanation could be that our societies are so advanced by now that we can finally listen to mental illnesses and take them seriously I lived in the Eastern Europe of the 1980s and the 1990s, not the best of times, economically speaking. I used to play football with Rroma children that were walking strange, at least that's how it looked to child-me, only later to find out that most probably t…

Is it at least partly a case of getting what you incentivize?

I was a teen in the 1980s, never knew of anyone who harmed himself other than accidentally. But we also didn't have doctors and counselors incessantly asking if we were depressed, or thinking of hurting ourselves. A kid today who says "yes" to either of those questions is going to find he's getting heaps of attention all of a sudden.

I have been thinking about this because I was at an orthopedist this week for an orthopedic isssue and I had to answer their "depression screening" questions. Trying to decide if these are being pushed by big pharma to get more people on antidepression meds or where else this might be coming from. The whole time I'm jsut thinking "you people aren't mental health specialists, or even general practioners, why are you asking me these irrelevant questions"