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The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

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Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#341

Post by Broken_Hippo »

WalterBright wrote: post #303
obscurette wrote: post #218

I'm a father of teen kids, teacher and educator. I don't think that there is a single reason here. All mentioned things contribute – social media pressure, climate problems, economical crisis etc. But I'd like to add another one – declining quality of education. I see increasing number of teens depressed because they don't have teachers and their education isn't good enough for jobs they'd like to get in future. And…

There's also been a corresponding dramatic drop in the number of teens who have had any sort of job. Not many things are as fulfilling as doing a job and getting paid for it. I remember when I realized I was making enough money that I could pay all my bills and no longer needed anything from my dad. It felt really good. For me that was the dividing line between being a child and an adult.

Not many things are as fulfilling as doing a job and getting paid for it.

Sorry, I don't get fulfillment from a job, nor do I base my personality on it. A job is a thing that I have to do to live and do some stuff I like.

That's it, nothing more. I'd never do actual work unless I had to, and I'd never work full time if I didn't have to. I'm never going to be motivated to work harder for a fancy car if I can have a reliable, efficient car. I'd like more space, but it needs not be huge or pretty (though, I'd like to cook and make art).

Making art is fulfilling. I enjoy making food - work means I eat more convenience foods. I don't need to be paid to help folks, either. I can get a sense of accomplishment by doing things that are difficult, from projects to playing games.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#342

Post by kevviiinn »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #78
kevviiinn wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>aren't allowed to clap at events because clapping is too violent This is the first I'm hearing about this, where did you see it?

Replacing applause with Jazz Hands was a remarkably big topic a few years ago. https://globalnews.ca/news/4512283/jazz-hands-to-replace-cla... For one example. I don't think it ever got to the point of "we aren't ever allowed to clap at events", but it certainly seems like there were people who were pushing for that

>In a statement, the University of Manchester Students’ Union said that they are not outright banning audible clapping at all school events, and are instead encouraging “the use of British Sign Language (BSL) clapping during our democratic events.” These events include meetings where members are invited to participate in decision making, the union said.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#344

Post by MinorTom »

notch898a wrote: post #287
PuppyTailWags wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And it's no coincidence young female teens are by far the most susceptible to transition to the opposite role: social media tells them "they were born in the wrong bodies". Um, statistically, trans women are more common than trans men.

In the old days trans people weren't shooting up christian schools out of frustration. I wonder if perhaps society made a mistake by so many members giving them the false impression that society should accept them for who they identify as. In the old days they pretty much had to learn to accept themselves for who they were and not worry about what other people thought, both because no one was encouraging them they de…

(I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just making this clear for anyone else reading. also: comment talks about suicide)

> In the old days they pretty much had to learn to accept themselves for who they were and not worry about what other people thought, both because no one was encouraging them they deserved acceptance and because few would have budged.

According to scientific research, around 1/3 of patients with gender dysphoria have attempted suicide in the past. The only medically accepted treatment for gender dysphoria is transition. If you're advocating against that then you're advocating in favor of preventable suffering & deaths.

Also, using human nature as an argument is fallacious.

https://www.psicothema.com/pdf/4483.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9501960/

re re:

I understood your comment to be against social acceptance of trans people, (and honestly still do. Admittedly this isn't a best-faith interpretation of your comment, but it made sense in the context I read it in. )

Therefore, my comment wasn't intended to be only about available medical treatment options (including surgical), but also about social acceptance of trans people, which is a kinda important part of all of this.

If that's not how you intended to mean your comment, that's great, because I agree with you on the medial/surgical side of things.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#345

Post by gspencley »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #320
WalterBright wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also been a corresponding dramatic drop in the number of teens who have had any sort of job. Not many things are as fulfilling as doing a job and getting paid for it. I remember when I realized I was making enough money that I could pay all my bills and no longer needed anything from my dad. It felt really good. For me that was the dividing line between being a child and an adult.

Kids today can have two or even three jobs and still not earn enough to pay the rent on a place of their own.

That and there are also fewer jobs available to teens / young adults. The types of jobs that we are making obsolete, whether through automation or regulation, are the types of repetitive, "unskilled" jobs that were previously offered to people just starting out. I'll take a chance on my 16 year-old nephew if I can pay him $5 / hour but if I have to pay him $15 / hour by law I'd rather have someone with more references. I'm also likely to ask that person to take on more responsibility, too, since my overhead just went up and my margins were paper thin to begin with. So now I need someone with additional experience.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#346

Post by naasking »

PuppyTailWags wrote: post #332
naasking wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is authoritative is the evidence. The cohort WPATH was familiar with before 2010 and for which we have considerable data was older male-to-female transitioners. This cohort has changed significantly per the article, which is why some people are raising concerns about the lack of quality safety data for minors. Furthermore, only the US has really pushed gender affirming care for minors to this degree. Every other…

I'm just saying it's still up in the air it seems.

I'm not sure what you're claiming is up in the air. My first claim was about the changing cohort, so if that's what you're referring to, the statistics are clear. Here's how it breaks down in Canada:

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/220427/cg-b0...

Transgender women were dominant and stable for a long time, as I said (male to female transitioners), and then trans men and non-binary cohort have shot past those levels like a rocket over the past few years.

Some of the increases are doubtless more acceptance of trans people, but it's not clear why that would affect the genders differentially in such a dramatic fashion.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#347

Post by seanmcdirmid »

synergy20 wrote: post #309
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Middle class and above kids still do as well in math in public schools as they do in private schools. The problem is that students from more disadvantaged backgrounds don't do as well, and its not like they can afford private schools anyways.

I grew up poor, it has nothing to do with private school to me at all, it's all about struggling parents still convinced their kids to do their best, and put education first as a family group effort. most of the poor here still is relatively much better off than those from under-developed countries, plus our school provides free lunch, many programs will waive fees if you're economically disadvantaged, etc. It's not…

> most of the poor here still is relatively much better off than those from under-developed countries

Education wise, middle class in a developing or under developed country will still beat poor in a developed country even if the latter have more money than the former. Culture has a lot to do with it, a lot has to do with the latter's parents not teaching current parents the same thing that the former's were taught. Home situation is much of the problem, and you can't just throw money at the problem, unfortunately.

European countries might do a better job at this by either (a) having less poor people (immigrants) or (b) putting in more resources to ensure that these kids get more support at home and in school to make up for their disadvantage. But often, you'll find in European countries that they have the same problems with kids from disadvantaged background being behind middle class kids, they just work at solving the problem better than we do in the states.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#348

Post by sacnoradhq »

lsllc wrote: post #296
obscurette wrote: post #218

I'm a father of teen kids, teacher and educator. I don't think that there is a single reason here. All mentioned things contribute – social media pressure, climate problems, economical crisis etc. But I'd like to add another one – declining quality of education. I see increasing number of teens depressed because they don't have teachers and their education isn't good enough for jobs they'd like to get in future. And…

I'm not sure you can blame problems such as climate change, economic issues -- every generation had its own existential crisis: WW2, Korea, Vietnam, numerous recessions and until 1990, recent generations lived under the specter of the atom bomb. I think it's social media, that's what's really changed: Every single teenager is now comparing themselves against every other kid in the world instead of just their local pe…

I had recurring nightmares about a malfunctioning nuclear warhead that slowed abnormally and spiraled in a flat spin leaving a smoke/vapor trail as it neared its ultimate detonation height.

The movie Red Dawn was the ultimate manifestation of 80's red hysteria and triumphal American exceptionalism.

~625 scanlines (PAL)? We only had ~480 scan lines with NTSC.

My parents had a roof-mounted VHF/UHF antenna that could be electrically rotated with a dial. Looking something like this

Antenna:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F...

Channel Master:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/WXgAAOSwGJJfoJlz/s-l640.jpg

My grandparents had an analog HBO pirate cheat box with a fixed, directional antenna. I remember watching George Carlin standup specials.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#349

Post by mxkopy »

thinkingemote wrote: post #336
mxkopy wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really easy to say for someone who doesn't experience these issues firsthand. Not reading the news isn't going to make your existential anxiety go away if you or your parents give it to you, either by helicoptering or living paycheck to paycheck. Also, you really don't think that, in between building aqueducts and nuclear missiles, nothing has changed? You really think we have the same problems today as we di…

Relative, not an absence. History and geography. We can look back at history and say that there are times that are worse than now. For example, the second world war was worse than now. Cuban missile crisis also. We can look at other countries and see that being in Syria or Ukraine right now is worse than in my more peaceful country. By looking this way we literally gain new perspectives. Perhaps part of today's crisi…

I don't know which reductionist framework you're working with to make these comparisons, but they're wrong, because they're reductionist. Some people like war, maybe things were awesome for them? Not to mention that humans are very social creatures. You can't just say 'medicine is better', 'crime is down' and neglect the erosion/transmogrification of every single social institution that has been around for XYZ decades just because there isn't a number or well-defined historical analysis associated with it.

I'll put it this way. We know exactly what happens when wars are started. We know very little about the effects of having an attention economy. For every thing you can give me that we know has changed for the better, I can give you another thing that's changed probably for the worse but we really have no clue. If people are living longer, more miserable lives, is that really an improvement?

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#350

Post by gspencley »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #341
WalterBright wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also been a corresponding dramatic drop in the number of teens who have had any sort of job. Not many things are as fulfilling as doing a job and getting paid for it. I remember when I realized I was making enough money that I could pay all my bills and no longer needed anything from my dad. It felt really good. For me that was the dividing line between being a child and an adult.

Not many things are as fulfilling as doing a job and getting paid for it. Sorry, I don't get fulfillment from a job, nor do I base my personality on it. A job is a thing that I have to do to live and do some stuff I like. That's it, nothing more. I'd never do actual work unless I had to, and I'd never work full time if I didn't have to. I'm never going to be motivated to work harder for a fancy car if I can have a re…

I DESPISED my first job (I delivered newspapers), but the independence it afforded me, the ability to buy clothes I like, to invest in a computer of my own and to take my girlfriend on dates was extremely fulfilling.

Productive work, in general, is fulfilling even if you don't happen to like your current "job." It is not the job itself, it is the act of taking action in order to achieve your values. If you value producing art, that is productive work even if it's not your "job" and even if it doesn't pay the bills. You are achieving some value from that. If you are truly fortunate you can find a way to monetize doing work that you would do even if it didn't pay ... but if your job is "just a means to an end", that end is clearly a value and the job is helping you achieve it. It's the achievement of the value that is rewarding.

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