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And yet It Understands

borretti.me

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Re: And yet It Understands

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, being sarcastic about AI! I bet you're the first person to come up with that idea! Man, I wish we could all be so smart and clear-seeing.

To be clear, I'm not being sarcastic about AI. I am pointing out that there are many examples of systems that can perform calculations that humans can also perform because we understand calculation, but (those systems) do not understand calculation, or what they are calculating, or that they are calculating anything at all. Yet, nobody is surprised that a calculator can perform arithmetic operations without understan…

I have no intention of defending the article's thesis, but I think your comparison of these language models to a calculator stops just when it is getting interesting.

Sure, it is unsurprising that a language model can calculate the probability of a string in a natural language without understanding language, but what I find surprising about it is that this alone quite often results in responses that could pass as human-generated.

When I write something, it does not feel as if I am just picking the next word to follow what I have written so far. Instead, it feels like I am working on several different but hierarchically-related goals simultaneously, with next-word choice being the least demanding. It seems implausible that probabilities derived from a large corpus of unrelated text, and, furthermore, by a process that does not understand language, would be useful in achieving my particular goals.

Maybe I am overrating the abilities of these models, despite not wanting to. Maybe my impressions have been skewed by seeing too many cherry-picked examples. Maybe I am being overly generous in my reading of the models' responses - or maybe my intuitions about how we humans come to say what we do is mistaken. Whatever is behind my surprise, I am confident that the scientific method will lead to explanations.

Re: And yet It Understands

#182
post #127

I still hold that it doesn't "understand". Even if it answered all questions perfectly, stopped making mistakes, and produced fully working programs better than the best crack developer teams, that still doesn't mean it "understands". "Understanding" is not an output, it's a process, that is sometimes (but not always) measured by its output.

To me setting the bar so high makes that definition of "understanding" meaningless.

If AI's outputs were literally indistinguishable from something that truly understands these concepts, then there's no practical difference if it really "understands". This reduces the concept of understanding to some abstract inconsequential property.

Re: And yet It Understands

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, I'm not being sarcastic about AI. I am pointing out that there are many examples of systems that can perform calculations that humans can also perform because we understand calculation, but (those systems) do not understand calculation, or what they are calculating, or that they are calculating anything at all. Yet, nobody is surprised that a calculator can perform arithmetic operations without understan…

I have no intention of defending the article's thesis, but I think your comparison of these language models to a calculator stops just when it is getting interesting. Sure, it is unsurprising that a language model can calculate the probability of a string in a natural language without understanding language, but what I find surprising about it is that this alone quite often results in responses that could pass as hum…

>> Whatever is behind my surprise, I am confident that the scientific method will lead to explanations.

I agree! Wholeheartedly so. But for the time being, the scientific method is not being applied. All that's been done is willy-nilly poking of different models and ooh'ing and aaah'ing at what falls off.

Of course, scientific explanations must take into account existing knowledge, the knowledge encoded in accepted scientific theories. We don't have any scientific theory of "understanding", in humans or machines. What we do have is a very clear theoretical and practical knowledge of how language models work. They are machines (in the abstract sense) that estimate the probabilities of sequences of tokens. Any explanation that fails to take this knowledge about what a language model is, and lack of knowledge about what "understanding" is, into account, will have to do a great, big deal of work to present a new theory.

And I would like to see such a new theory. In particular, perhaps we could have a theory of "understanding" in machines, based on current observations of the behaviour of large language models, and the known principles of their design.

But, so far, we have nothing like that! We have hand waving, wild proclamations based on faith and nothing else. It's impossible to reason for or against matters of faith.

>> Sure, it is unsurprising that a language model can calculate the probability of a string in a natural language without understanding language, but what I find surprising about it is that this alone quite often results in responses that could pass as human-generated.

I don't find that surprising. There are plenty of examples of systems capable of interacting with humans by generating natural language responses that "could pass as human-generated". For a couple of famous examples, SHRDLU, ELIZA and Eugene Goostman; they should be easy to search for online, otherwise please ask me for links. We know very well by now that this is no way to figure out the capabilities of a system, comparing it to human behaviour. That is particularly so for systems that are specifically created to mimic human behaviour.

You see, that's the big problem we're neck-deep into. Language models are machines that mimic human language production. By observing how good such a system is at producing human-like language, all we can say is how good the machine is at what it's designed to do. We can't draw any other conclusions. Not safely, because there is a great, major, risk of confirmation bias, and of circular reasoning, waiting in the wings. That would be so for any system designed to mimic human behaviour, but for a system that mimics language that's even more so, because it is extremely difficult to disentangle grammatical text from the expectation that it was written using human faculties.

tl;dr: we 're in a bias pit and we'll keep falling down it until someone figures out how to measure the abilities of LLMs somehow else than just poking them.

Re: And yet It Understands

#184

Guys guys! Stop talking about LLMs a minute and look at this! I gave my phone's calculator app this very hard multiplication problem and it got it right! Look! 2398794857945873 * 10298509348503 = 2.47040112696963e+28 My calculator can do arithmetic! But only humans can do arithmetic! Therefore, my calculator must understand arithmetic! And I bet it always gets it right, too! That means it must understand arithmetic b…

Wow, being sarcastic about AI! I bet you're the first person to come up with that idea! Man, I wish we could all be so smart and clear-seeing.

> Wow, being sarcastic about AI! (...)

OP presented a clear and insightful comment on these critiques of AI.

You, on the other hand, added zero to the discussion.

If you have nothing to add, add nothing.

Re: And yet It Understands

#185
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often think about this problem and I keep returning to the thought that maybe we're close to understanding how consciousness works, maybe these LLMs are actually getting us closer to understanding this thing. But some people are going to be disappointed because it will remove all doubt about how un-special humans are. We're just a bunch of neurons, which are made out of physics. But I'm not disappointed. This stoch…

I think the whole concept of "consciousness" might get old in nearby future. ANNs and brains will get better understood and people start questioning not what consciousness and reasoning are, but rather why they feel their "now" as they do, whether they are full of energy and in sharp mental state or they drunk to half death and can't really reason and form sentences normally yet still perceiving their "now" in the sa…

Yes. It turns out that the brain consists of white matter, grey matter, and dark matter. The dark matter is consciousness. Once we understand it, the the word consciousness will no longer be mysterious. I can’t wait!

Re: And yet It Understands

#186

Arguing over whether it “understands” or not is bad philosophy. It’s like there’s a magic show and you’re arguing over whether it’s “real magic” or whether there’s “some trick to it.” There are always tricks, but until you know what they are, the mystery is still there and you haven’t solved it. If God told you “yes it understands” or “no it doesn’t,” what would you have learned? The mystery would still be there. It’…

Well, you can make falsifiable prediction about whether an AI "understands" something at a deep or shallow level, though both these concepts and the predictions themselves will be a bit fuzzy. As a concrete example, take the "wolf, goat and cabbage cross a river" puzzle. you can make several experiments which distinguish at which level an AI "understands" it. - Can it solve the problem at all? - Can it solve the prob…

Yes, there are helpful experiments along these lines, but you need to be careful drawing conclusions because the output is random and it's easy to fall for gambling fallacies. This isn't like debugging a deterministic program; it can take more data than you might expect.

For example, let's take "can it solve it at all." How many attempts will you give it before you give up? How many different prompts will you try? If it hasn't solved it yet, there's always an argument that it could, given a better prompt.

Also, you might see a problem get solved the first time, take a screenshot, and then assume it can solve the problem reliably when it can't, it was just lucky that one time.

Similarly for your other questions. If it does work, and you change one thing and it fails, is your change the cause or was it random? You need to try it both ways multiple times.

For everyday purposes this often doesn't matter. It's like asking a random person for directions. If it works, maybe you don't care if it's repeatable, because you're never going to ask for the same directions again.

Re: And yet It Understands

#187
Two-layer neural networks are universal approximators. Given enough units/parameters in the first layer, enough data, and enough computation, they can model any relationship.

(Any relationship with a finite number of discontinuities. Which covers everything we care about here.)

But more layers, and recurrent layers, let deep learning models learn complex relationships with far fewer parameters, far less data and far less computation.

Less parameters (per complexity of data and performance required of the model) means more compressed, more meaningful representations.

The point is that you can’t claim a deep learning model has only learned associations, correlations, conditional probabilities, Markov chains, etc.

Because architecturally, it is capable of learning any kind of relationship.

That includes functional relationships.

Or anything you or I do.

So any critique on the limits of large language models needs to present clear evidence of what it is being claimed it is not doing.

Not just some assumed limitation that has not been demonstrated.

Second thought. People make all kinds of mistakes. Including very smart people.

So pointing out that an LLM has trouble with some concept doesn’t mean anything.

Especially given these models already contain more concepts across more human domains than any of us have ever been exposed to.

Re: And yet It Understands

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think there's a difference between solving well-defined problems and very open-ended problems?

Which problems are you talking about?

Euclid’s proof in form of a poem. In style of Shakespeare.

Re: And yet It Understands

#189

This article lines up well with my feelings on the matter. In general, people seem to understate the emergent behaviours of ML models, while overstating the uniqueness of human intelligence. I think a lot of this is down to the fact that although both systems exhibit a form of intelligence, they’re very different. LLMs deliver mastery of natural language that would normally be a signal for a highly intelligent human.…

>LLMs deliver mastery of natural language that would normally be a signal for a highly intelligent human. While in other ways they’re less intelligent than a cat. Just as an example to illustrate your point, yesterday saw a Twitter meme that had multiple overlapping Venn diagrams, where Chicago was not only in a Venn diagram for a type of deep dish pizza, but is also a city, and is also a play, and also a format for…

I had success with this prompt: Are Chicago and Rent both a type of the same thing?

It said they're both well known musicals. Even with this structure it didn't come up with something for your original pair though.

Re: And yet It Understands

#190
since its seems that the author is reading HN : congratulations for that article. It managed to be interesting on a topic that's written about non stop those days, and the writing style is very good.
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