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Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip-maker Nvidia

theguardian.com

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Re: Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip-maker Nvidia

#201
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entirely possible for nvidia to be sour and also correct. Crypto currencies have done nothing for society but to introduce scam and money laundering vectors.

There are people that still have their accounts frozen because they donated to the truckers in Canada. That’s insane. Other countries had or will have similar cases in the future. We absolutely should have a way to exchange money without the governments involvement. The government already has the monopoly on physical force. That ought to be enough. So yes, there is a use case. But you’re correct in that it hasn’t rea…

Oh yeah, and those same people later cry foul when they get robbed of their money because it was not protected in any way.

Suddenly everybody wants crypto but with protections. Fools.

There is a reason why money and banking is regulated -- to protect little guys from getting scammed right and left.

Those protections are not perfect, true, but still orders of magnitude better than crypto free for all.

And as to monopoly on physical force, there is a reason for it, too. Take a look at African countries for what happens when people are allowed to take things into their own hands. Take a look at The Last of Us if you want to know what happens when there is no government that can project physical force.

Our civilisation is far from perfect but it is a civilisation. It lets you live, travel and do business in relative safety. So think about it the next time you start imagining how good it would be without all this pesky civilisation around you. Because it is much better and productive to try to iteratively fix what we already have than decide to erase everything and start a complete rewrite.

Re: Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip-maker Nvidia

#202

Wrong. Cryptocurrency demonstrate what electronic payment system should look like: without ability to sell user data and spy on users. Cryptocurrency is the payment system which is designed only for payment without unnecessary features. Today if you pay with card you basically consent to collecting your data by corporations and following you offline and online, creating a detailed history of your activity. Corporatio…

I don't give a f*k about someone following my activities, I'm not doing anything illegal, that's why I don't understand this privacy craze going on. The most they can do is show me some personalized ads and I don't care. But the downside is getting scammed, get money stolen and not being able to figure out who did that. That's what anonymity feature of crypto promotes which I think is a much bigger deal, especially i…

>I don't give a f*k about someone following my activities

Go buy some Cuban cigars. Go start/put on an anti-Modi demonstration in India.

You've got nothing to hide exactly because you haven't found yourself on the "wrong side of the tracks" yet. I assure you, the point will come when you sift into a disenfranchised bucket; then you will.

Re: Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip-maker Nvidia

#203
post #99

I do not own any crypto myself. The grown-up opinion is of course to view all crypto ""investments"" with extreme skepticism, which is an absolutely sane and correct position. With that said, I like the idea of cryptocurrencies simply because they are punk as f*ck, and I'd like whatever leadership in charge to know that they do not have absolute power to run anyone else's life. Apart from magic internet money, I cann…

Why not divert that interest into the world of secure private and/or anonymous chat and networking protocols? The flow of information and ideas is more valuable than currency, and there is increasing pressure to legislate it out of existence.

It is not clear to me that there is any reasonable way to implement a truly permissionless and secure decentralized anonymous protocol without using programmatic money as you need some way to fairly allocate resources. Hell: if you stare into the soul of Bittorrent long enough trying to figure out how to make it worth your while to seed unpopular files you realize that it is essentially just digital barter screaming for a way to store and transfer your good will, letting all the seeding you did on prior files help you download this new one... and, well: welcome to capitalism.

I was working on decentralized systems back as early as 2001--notably, well before Bitcoin existed--and it frankly seemed just as true back then and we didn't even know how or if it was going to be possible for anyone to make the money part work. In 2009, when Bitcoin came out, I was too busy working on my federated iOS app store alternative for it to sink in what had happened as I remember barely taking note of Bitcoin and later not taking enough note when people tried to show it to me that something important had been figured out. I am sad that I saw people I even knew working on Ethereum and still didn't join the efforts until 2017.

But like, with permissionless systems, and when all the participants are anonymous, you have a really serious problem of how to deal with freeriders and spam. To the extent to which prior attempts at such protocols have worked they either are run by centralized cabals (Tor and its ~10 directory servers managed by Roger Dingledine and his friends), is based on barter and has severe / obvious limits on its applicability (Bittorrent), or--and this is the biggest category by far--only works because it is so niche and/or new that no one has so far decided to attack it (or, worse: someone did attack it, the attack worked, but the protocol is so niche that the people who built the protocol don't actually give a shit as the attacks aren't happening in practice... this is the situation with I2P). Hell: email has even become more and more centralized and less possible to remain anonymous, in no small part due to spam.

At best, you see people try to build a kind of reputation management system based on your IPv4 address, under the assumption that those are scarce. In fact, despite Tor being largely centralized (on the aforementioned directory services run by Roger Dingledine and his friends) it also relies heavily on IPv4 address scarcity as they don't know all of the server administrators (though Roger Dingledine does claim to "personally have met" 2/3rds of them, which I find more terrifying than relieving). This, though, only really works if you use a slow accumulation whitelist model (which is how Tor manages their high-risk exit nodes) as otherwise your protocol kind of becomes irrelevant in a world of IPv6 (which Tor has in fact struggled with, though they have better options here due to the design of the directory server cabal).

Regardless, if you are building up reputation surrounding IP addresses, you know what you aren't? Anonymous (because an IP address is a location tied to a user; and, if you are able to borrow someone else's IP address, its reputation is going to be poor, almost by definition). And, sure... that's sort of OK for some kinds of protocols: in the case of Tor, you want the users to be anonymous while the servers don't at all have to be (and, in a very real sense, can't) and so they can use this largely-centralized design for the list of servers to slowly build trust in new operators whose reputation they manage by their indirect identity, and then hopefully the users can be anonymous, right? (...Right?)

But like, the users being anonymous only sort of works on Tor because the users are by-and-large actively choosing to not be brats: the servers are donating resources and they are donating it to a cause, not because they are bored; and so, if you sit around using their bandwidth and good will to do nothing more interesting than stream YouTube videos all day--as a user in the United States who is not blocked from accessing YouTube or anything--you are considered to be abusing a scarce resource and people who find out try to make you feel bad. Maybe it works? But the result undermines the premise: everyone who uses Tor is supposedly someone who needs to use Tor, which means the FBI can and in fact did (as part of XKeyScore) just flag people who go to Tor's website for extra diligence.

If you wanted the worlds' Internet traffic to flow through it, with every user using much more bandwidth from the system than it costs them to send (as their bandwidth gets amplified as it goes through multiple other nodes) you need a way to dole out this resource in a fair way, building some kind of market for the resource; and, I totally do appreciate this answer kind of sucks, but the decentralized way to build a market is... capitalism, using some kind of money to compensate people for their efforts. You will find a similar need in any decentralized system to prevent bad actors from just monopolizing all of the resources (well, unless you decide to use an IP-based reputation management scheme... which would again undermine the point).

(Note: I work on a system designed to make this eventually work in the specific case of an actually-fully decentralized market-based Tor-like mechanism. No: it isn't something I am sufficiently proud of right now to want to sit around arguing whether the thing that we deployed fully solved the problem: I am just going to say we made a lot of impact and progress and leave it at that for today... however, I am still working on this problem space, I already know how to make this stuff better, but I have been distracted with personal issues... maybe you'll see something dramatic from me in the near future. But like, I frankly see no way of making anything even similar work without money in the design; and, if you do, then I beg of you to drop everything you are doing and either build it or tell others how to build it as the world needs to have decentralized protocols and the reason almost all of the decentralized protocol design has moved into crypto is not merely because it is lucrative: it is because, for the first time, it actually feels possible there.)

But so like, I essentially dare you to show me any decentralized protocol that allows anonymous users to permissionlessly participate even if they are actively trying to gobble up resources and even if they simply hate the protocol and chose to implement it incorrectly. That Bitcoin worked was a watershed moment in this space, and it did it by starting with the idea of using capitalism to solve a kind of lazy version of the consensus problem. It isn't the be-all-and-end-all of designs and it has a lot of holes, and yet it is still working despite a ridiculous number of people trying to use it at the same time and a number of people actively wishing it didn't exist. Did it get expensive at times? Yes. But did it just turn into a bunch of worthless spam? No. Have people managed to shut it down? Not yet! And later designs have been attempting to iterate on the mechanism by adding more functionality (such as Ethereum, upon which my team was able to deploy a probabilistic nanopayments mechanism similar to the centralized Internet startup PepperCoin) or increasing the performance (I had been particularly enamored with Avalanche). There are parallel tracks designed to improve the privacy and anonymity (such as Zcash).

This is, in all honesty, the future of decentralized systems. And yes: the existence of money as one of the early essential primitives means that for every iota of progress there are people who just try to cash in on the whole thing... but I watched this space take a full decade before anyone even figured out how to build a decentralized currency, and the progress suddenly made since then has been dramatic, with people figuring out how to build any number of decentralized alternatives to centralized systems that previously would have been unheard of... even if you want to poo poo it all because it is "hard to use" or "costs more", the fact that it works is amazing and should be inspiring.

Re: Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip-maker Nvidia

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good for you. But it seems that cryto is a zero sum game. Every dollar one person makes, another person loses.

Bitcoin is trading at 28k. When the dollar is endlessly printed, all you need to do is not sell your bitcoin and eventually you'll come out ahead. Because the dollar supply is infinite, it is not zero-sum.

If bitcoin was the only crypto, maybe, but there is an infinite number of possible crypto coins.

Re: Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip-maker Nvidia

#205
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His claim... "it collapsed, because it doesn’t bring anything useful for society" ...is incorrect. The total crypto market cap collapsed because of interest rate hikes. Nvidia's stock dropped 68%. Is that because it didn't bring anything useful for society? No. It was trading at a premium because of low rates.

> The total crypto market cap collapsed because of interest rate hikes. Let's take a deeper cut, why does something collapse when interest rates rise?

Interest rates in Argentina have been on an upward trend for the last decade [1], yet bitcoin is near its all time high relative to the Peso [2]. How do you explain the contradiction here?

[1] https://tradingeconomics.com/argentina/interest-rate

[2] https://tradingeconomics.com/btcars:cur

Re: Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip-maker Nvidia

#206
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entirely possible for nvidia to be sour and also correct. Crypto currencies have done nothing for society but to introduce scam and money laundering vectors.

There are people that still have their accounts frozen because they donated to the truckers in Canada. That’s insane. Other countries had or will have similar cases in the future. We absolutely should have a way to exchange money without the governments involvement. The government already has the monopoly on physical force. That ought to be enough. So yes, there is a use case. But you’re correct in that it hasn’t rea…

No. The few who had their accounts frozen had them unfrozen within days. The freezing was done by the banks without instruction from the government other than the existing "supporting terrorism" laws on the books (it was done by the banks of their own volition before the Emergencies Act was passed). Yes, efforts were being organized to bypass regulation by taking donations in cryptocoin but that turned out to be a scam and thankfully few of the donors were sophisticated enough to go beyond cheques and credit card donations to Give/Send/Go.

So, end in the end, a terrible example of why trusting the organized crime behind crypto is superior to the usual crowd and whether it has contributed anything useful to society. It's more of an example of how paranoia can blind one to reality.

Re: Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip-maker Nvidia

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO since crypto is a newer technology than AI, I think it's more relevant to ask whether crypto is "AI all over again". AI has followed the classic Gartner hype cycle [1]. There was the trigger in the 1960s-90s, the peak of inflated expectations in 2000-2010 with every other company bragging about "AI this" or "machine learning that" while having nothing of any use to show for it, then finally the "slope of enlighte…

Modern AI is less than ten years old. Digital money is older than crypto. PyTorch: Initial release September 2016; 6 years ago Tensorflow: Initial release November 9, 2015; 7 years ago > In 1983, a research paper titled "Blind Signatures for Untraceable Payments" by David Chaum introduced the idea of digital cash. > The first artificial neural network was invented in 1958 by psychologist Frank Rosenblatt. In the limi…

> What's the technical problem with crypto?

* The waste of Proof Of Work (in terms of both on-chain economics and off-chain externalities). Introduced in 2009, solved in 2023 with Ethereum's final Proof Of Stake update (earlier if you look at smaller cryptos or if you count Ethereum's half-finished PoS algo starting in 2020).

* The inability to scale transaction throughput. Became a problem with Bitcoin in 2015, partially solved by Ethereum in 2022 with Layer 2 chains, to be fully solved in 2024-2027 with data availability sampling and generalized zero knowledge roll-ups.

* The inability to reach quick finality. Bitcoin provided 30 to 60 minute probabilistic finality. Ethereum provided similar probabilistic finality with much more predictability. Ethereum's PoS update gave it 15-minute economic finality. Future updates promise 12-second on-chain economic finality. Zero knowledge rollups promise instant economic finality.

* Miner extractable value (MEV). Too deep a topic to get into here, but it's a problem that plagues existing public smart contracts and that has solutions (like proposer-builder separation) that are currently in concept phase (2-5 years until wide implementation).

* History and state expiry. Basically, the ability for a blockchain to prune very old data that is no longer needed to keep consensus. 3-5 years out imo. This will allow for blockchains that don't constantly grow in size the longer they run.

Re: Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip-maker Nvidia

#208
post #3

Reminder: when a corporation says “useful” they mean “profitable.” I’m not on the crypto bandwagon, I just want folks to take anything a corp says with a grain of salt.

Does your comment also cover not trusting exchanges that back stable coins with pure fraud or pump and dump coins before listing them on their exchanges... Or does this only cover companies and individuals that think crypto has yet to find a good Avenue in society?

Any and all.

Re: Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip-maker Nvidia

#209
post #40

Most crypto currencies don't and probably never will. But those such as Bitcoin that are the most decentralized and censorship resistant are crucial to those living under authoritarian regimes and whose currencies are going through significant debasement. The mad rush to make a quick buck and the propaganda from those in power have distorted the original intent behind crypto. Also, corporations such as Nvidia that de…

That's just the problem. It's very popular with people who want to bypass the law. Occasionally that's crucial and laudable. Usually it's drugs and illegal pornography. Which makes its use for anything legal dubious. If it ever could have broken that stigma, the swarm of speculators and scammers made that impossible.

Is the law always correct? Specifically in totalitarian countries? The internet is also a tool for braking the law with unrestricted information. Bitcoin is unrestrained money. All the bitcoin copycats controlled by individuals are scams tho

Re: Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip-maker Nvidia

#210
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entirely possible for nvidia to be sour and also correct. Crypto currencies have done nothing for society but to introduce scam and money laundering vectors.

His claim... "it collapsed, because it doesn’t bring anything useful for society" ...is incorrect. The total crypto market cap collapsed because of interest rate hikes. Nvidia's stock dropped 68%. Is that because it didn't bring anything useful for society? No. It was trading at a premium because of low rates.

So much for crypto being an inflation hedge.
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