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Judge decides against Internet Archive

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411–420 of 835 posts

Re: Judge decides against Internet Archive

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s kind of true that idea of IP is entirely made-up, but it’s also important to recognize that it was made up to support and safeguard author’s living . IP allows authors to require values of content to be preserved, recognized, and financially rewarded(in one-time or recurring payments). In the absence of IP, printing companies can take manuscripts and contents to profit off of copies free-for-all style, bankrupti…

Disney and Electronic Arts employs hundreds of thousands of employees that gets to enjoy their salary. They are paid through the IP. How is that not IP working as intended?

The employees toil to create amazing stuff and receive a pittance compared to what it's worth. Most of the profit goes to execs who have had no hand in creating anything of value.

Re: Judge decides against Internet Archive

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might, as history has cycles. But not because it will be replaced with something "better". Democracy just means everybody has a say on decisions affecting them and the society they are in. If your replacement is closer to "only informed people should have a say", that is even older then democracy, and is much worse in practice.

If we don't replace the current flavour of democracy with something better there won't be much society in a few years (10s, 100s). The next level beyond democracy is tiered, time-limited, and retractable sortism [1]: some kind of a return to roots (Athenian democracy), but with a twist. A quick way to sketch it would look like this: (i) no functionaries: run all the administrative jobs not in an office by Margaret an…

>If we don't replace the current flavour of democracy with something better there won't be much society in a few years

The current flavour of democracy is already not democratic as practiced in most countries (perhaps Switzerland is an exception).

In the US it's career politicians with little accountability, billionaires and huge coporations with huge influence, paying politicians, media owned by said millionaires or fed BS by the government, a baroque system of chosing President, a failed educational system that doesn't teach kids to be active citizens, fossilized two party system supported by all kinds of powers and structures that the voters aren't allowed to change, and so on. Plus a charade of voting once every five years. If that's democracy, then yes, it should change: to real democracy.

The options you describe would be some of the solutions to that.

Of course those "wise persons in power who know better than us what's good for us" will prevent anything like that.

Re: Judge decides against Internet Archive

#413

Intellectual property is an unnatural, made up construct that will one day be seen as ridiculous as absolute monarchy is today. If we are going to allow it and penalize people who are doing natural human things like sharing with friends, there has to be a specific benefit to society in every instance. For example, pay taxes on copyrights and patents, increasing every year to reflect disturbance caused to society.

Absolute monarchy doesn't work at all as an example of a thoroughly discredited intellectual concept. It's the political reality in various countries across the globe right now and frequently polls highly in all others. The word "king" has been dropped and replaced by "president" or "strong leader", but the concept is the same.

And I think that's an important development to keep in mind when arguing against something like intellectual property, because these debates also frequently shift to battles over words instead of realities.

Re: Judge decides against Internet Archive

#414
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter?

Yes: if it’s the sabbath, that’s an argument with which I’m familiar. My counter-argument is that I don’t want to be forced to practice someone else’s religion. If your religion already imposes those rules on its followers, why does it need a secular government to assist? If it’s not the sabbath, then I’m intrigued and want to learn more.

Somewhat pedantic, but I would note that Sunday isn't the Sabbath, Saturday is. Most Christians don't observe the Sabbath (citing Jesus's defense of the woman who was supposed to be stoned because she had collected wood on the Sabbath). Instead, they rest on the Lord's day, commemorating Jesus's resurrection the day after the Sabbath, while still recognizing that their god rested after creating the world on a Saturday.

Re: Judge decides against Internet Archive

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is, but not one imposed by the laws of physics or some universal given. ] For example it was moral and ethical (and you were considered a good person regardless of whether you did it) to own slaves when that was the prevalent morality of a societies. So, there are actions that are unethical based on made up human constructs of morality. Nature and physics doesn't care either way. Which is the parent's point: wh…

It was accepted as an economic reality but it was never considered moral or ethical to own slaves any more than it’s considered ethical to own a tool shed today.

Of course it was absolutely considered moral and ethical.

There are tons of old articles, books, and treteases on the matter, describing it as perfectly moral and ethical, and how its beneficial to the slaves, who lack agency, are animal like, and are offered "useful work" from their masters who know better, how they are beastly and need the whip to get sense into them, and so on.

That's of course, on top of the fact that slave owners were among the most respected good-standing members of society, and only controversial figures considered them imoral and unethical for owning slave. In fact abolitionists were considered bad people, not unlike today's terrorists and activists.

Theses idea of the morality of being a slave owner, and the superiority and natural right of the owners vs the slaves, is universal in societies that held slaves (as was in societies were royals and lords were above folks reduced to peasants).

Regarding the South, for example:

"What were Southern pastors, preachers, and religious leaders telling their flock? Southern clergy defended the morality of slavery through an elaborate scriptural defense built on the infallibility of the Bible, which they held up as the universal and objective standard for moral issues.

(...)

Reverend Furman of South Carolina insisted that the right to hold slaves was clearly sanctioned by the Holy Scriptures. A fellow reverend from Virginia agreed that on no other subject “are [the Bible’s] instructions more explicit, or their salutary tendency and influence more thoroughly tested and corroborated by experience than on the subject of slavery.” The Methodist Episcopal Church, South, asserted that slavery “has received the sanction of Jehova.” As a South Carolina Presbyterian concluded: “If the scriptures do not justify slavery, I know not what they do justify.”

As Pastor Dunwody of South Carolina summed up the case: “Thus, God, as he is infinitely wise, just and holy, never could authorize the practice of a moral evil. But god has authorized the practice of slavery, not only by the bare permission of his Providence, but the express provision of his word. Therefore, slavery is not a moral evil.” Since the Bible was the source for moral authority, the case was closed. “Man may err,” said the southern theologian James Thornwell, “but God can never lie.”

The Southern Presbyterian of S.C observed that there was a “religious character to the present struggle. Anti-slavery is essentially infidel. It wars upon the Bible, on the Church of Christ, on the truth of God, on the souls of men.”

During the 1850’s, pro-slavery arguments from the pulpit became especially strident. A preacher in Richmond exalted slavery as “the most blessed and beautiful form of social government known; the only one that solves the problem, how rich and poor may dwell together; a beneficent patriarchate.” The Central Presbyterian affirmed that slavery was “a relation essential to the existence of civilized society.” By 1860, Southern preachers felt comfortable advising their parishioners that “both Christianity and Slavery are from heaven; both are blessings to humanity; both are to be perpetuated to the end of time.”

Same for politicians:

William Harris, Mississippi’s commissioner to Georgia, explained that Lincoln’s election had made the North more defiant than ever. As Harris saw things, “Our fathers made this a government for the white man, rejecting the negro as an ignorant, inferior, barbarian race, incapable of self-government, and not, therefore, entitled to be associated with the white man upon terms of civil, political, or social equality.” Lincoln and his followers, he stated, aimed to “overturn and strike down this great feature of our union and to substitute in its stead their new theory of the universal equality of the black and white races.” For Harris, the choice was clear. Mississippi would “rather see the last of her race, men, women, and children, immolated in one common funeral pyre than see them subjugated to the degradation of civil, political and social equality with the negro race.”

More to the point, he noted, abolition meant “the turning loose upon society, without the salutary restraints to which they are now accustomed, more than four millions of a very poor and ignorant population, to ramble in idleness over the country until their wants should drive most of them, first to petty thefts, and afterwards to the bolder crimes of robbery and murder.”

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/why-non-slavehol....

Re: Judge decides against Internet Archive

#416
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. We can simply say IP is a concept that we need to bust. And that's fine. No need to invoke weird "reasoning" like that.

I personally like that movies and videogames exist and can be made with large budgets because that generally makes them better. I don't see how that continues without IP.

It will continue without IP once people realize that the creative arts benefit from people doing it for the love of the art, as opposed to doing it out of a fear of starvation.

People should get paid to create things, and get paid what the work is worth.

Right now, people get paid a small fraction of what it's worth, while the bigger fraction goes to execs who have had no hand in creating anything of value. And those execs get paid for selling something that their workers have made, not for making it.

Big-budget movies should get made because people democratically decided that we want to collectively spend resources on making such a movie, not because unelected company execs say so who have exclusive control over a huge amount of capital and who can use IP laws to extol more capital from innocent people who just wanna watch a decent movie.

Re: Judge decides against Internet Archive

#418

Intellectual property is an unnatural, made up construct that will one day be seen as ridiculous as absolute monarchy is today. If we are going to allow it and penalize people who are doing natural human things like sharing with friends, there has to be a specific benefit to society in every instance. For example, pay taxes on copyrights and patents, increasing every year to reflect disturbance caused to society.

Are you equating what the IA did here to "sharing with friends"?

I'm not OP, but personally, I can totally get behind that. It is not up to the law to tell me who can be my friend. If I decide that all of humanity are my friends then I should be able to share anything I want with them.

Re: Judge decides against Internet Archive

#419
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a terrible ruling. The first sale doctrine says the copy of the book you bought is yours. Lending the book is clearly not copying it. So, I guess you just don’t own anything you buy anymore? Like what if I want to lend a tool to someone, and the tool manufacturer wants to rent their tools out? Is that also illegal? What if the tool contains software? What if reasonable use of the tool requires accessing a prin…

I don’t disagree with the ruling. IA is not lending their copy that they purchased. They are lending a copy of their copy. While that copy is lent out, they are still free to, I.e. read the copy in their possession.

And also it's a lot easier to copy a digitally borrowed book than it is to copy a physically borrowed book.

There are practical differences between the two, which mean that the law probably should treat them differently. I expect a lot of HN have difficulty dealing with that because they think "but they both contain the same information".

It reminds me of people trying to encode books into prime numbers or the digits or pi or whatnot to "get around" copyright. Fundamentally missing the point.

Re: Judge decides against Internet Archive

#420

I don't understand why users would voluntarily move away from piracy. I prefer "you can't do anything about it" to "please let us." Why the norm, base line expectation of the end user is not identity obfuscation and free access to information without hindrance I just don't get.

Because people are not good at using the Internet or technology and just want to click on links.

I'm not convinced. Before smartphones and the like, people used Gnutella and ICQ. We live in a world of telephone numbers, social security numbers, credit card numbers, top level domains, maybe your average Joe can't program a computer but he can definitely install Tor browser and a BitTorrent client.

I think the problem is that the produce the end user gets are delivered as a business case through a funnel, and people don't realize that the relationship is fundamentally adversarial. What just boggles my mind is how people just accept it without any sort of rebellion or self interest.

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