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Ritalin Gone Wrong

nytimes.com

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Re: Ritalin Gone Wrong

#121

Post by sek »

marshray wrote: post #110
sek wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we talk about normal activities like studying and working, i think so. The ability to concentrate and motivating yourself is something you have to develop yourself. Ritalin is not the wonderdrug you take and become a perfect student. If there is something like that, the perfect drug without side effects, i don't think you can prevent people from taking it. Even for caffeine you develop a tolerance very fast.

The ability to concentrate and motivating yourself is something you have to develop yourself. I once thought this too. Everyone has issues with concentration and motivation. Most people deal with it through "self-discipline". This is great for them. The problem is that people who haven't experienced clinical levels of cognitive issues in themselves or with others close to them often find it very appealing to evaluate…

That is the reason a lot of people i know are taking Ritalin, without a diagnosis. These incredible improvements show all of them, it is out of question that the short term improvements are impressive.

If you have read the original article, the question is if this can be sustained over a long period. When the person you know get's into his first job and he is totally dependent on Ritalin what happens when the effect wears off?

A good friend of mine started with it at grade 8, about 4 years after that the problems were slowly coming back. He blamed different things for it, but he never the medication. I mean it worked so well in the beginning. I wonder why there are so few long term studies, that is exactly the behavior that is significant.

When the body is somewhat dependent on methylphenidate to produce enough dopamine, the situation is worse than before. I mean we still don't fully understand what affects the production of dopamine. That is exactly the reason why you have to know how these things influence you over decades.

Re: Ritalin Gone Wrong

#122

Post by greenyoda »

danneu wrote: post #62
rkon wrote: post #27

Parents should really take note of the studies and conclusions in this article. As someone diagnosed with ADHD who has tried numerous medications (Adderall regular and XR, Vyvanse, Strattera, Focalin, and Wellbutrin) I have to say I would never ever EVER allow a young child of mine to take any of them. I can't even fathom how confusing and damaging the side effects of these medications could be to the fragile psyche…

I take a low dose of Vyvanse and I agree. Diagnosed in my 20s. Always dreaded school. The 8-hour-day stagnant, unchallenging classroom model never compelled me. Maybe it's time to accept that if a kid isn't compelled by our education system we might have a systemic problem that can't be fixed by prescribing kids speed until they can make it through 8 hours without having a wayward thought. A low dose of amphetamine h…

I'm glad someone brought up the possibility that the problem is in an educational system which makes demands on children, such as sitting still for hours at a time, that evolution just didn't prepare us for. Unfortunately, it's a lot easier to "fix" the children than it is to fix the school system. And since pharmaceutical companies make huge profits from selling drugs to kids, there's a vested interest in the current approach.

Re: Ritalin Gone Wrong

#123

Post by rms »

trotsky wrote: post #116
rms wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High dose stimulants in rats are neurotoxic. http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/neuro/20091104/msgs/931964.html Your mileage may vary, but I think prescribing patients >50mg amphetamine is often irresponsible. Ask your psychiatrist at what dosage he thinks amphetamine is neurotoxic. 90mg maybe? Doctors agree that a certain dose is neurotoxic but disagree on what that dosage is. 60mg is the official maximum safe dose, but i…

Stimulants aren't neurotoxic, specific substances at specific levels are. Methylphenidate's majority of benefit comes from its reuptake inhibition of both dopamine and norepinephrine. While it is also a dopamine releasing agent, it does so at dramatically lower levels than the amphetamine family. The difference turns out to be significant - while they both promote more dopamine activity in the brain, it turns out tha…

Sorry, yes, I'm suggesting that amphetamine is much more dagnerous than methylphendidate.

Re: Ritalin Gone Wrong

#124

Post by rms »

rsheridan6 wrote: post #115
rms wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a high dosage, to the level where I expect it is neurotoxic. I think you might be more of the exception than the rule... some withdrawal is to be expected, though not necessarily as strong as OP.

56mg means Concerta, which is an all-day extended release formulation - not the same as injecting 56 mg into your mainline, or taking an immediate release tablet. Concerta wouldn't come in a 56mg tablet if it was expected to be neurotoxic.

Good point. As he was responding to someone discussing amphetamine, I thought he meant amphetamine. I have known someone prescribed 3x20mg short acting amphetamine daily who after stopping is now quite aware of the long term negative effects.

Re: Ritalin Gone Wrong

#125

Post by sek »

psaccounts wrote: post #30

It is a shame that most people are unaware of the efficacy of Homeopathy to treat ADD, ADHD and autism-spectrum disorders. Do some research and you'll see how hundreds of thousands of people have been cured of these ailments using Homeopathy alone.

This is why i love HN, this post is exactly where is has to be.

Re: Ritalin Gone Wrong

#126

Post by jerf »

X-Istence wrote: post #72
qrybam wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scary thought: Going cold turkey with coffee has had very similar effects on me (after 2 weeks of 1-2 cups a day; 2-4 shots/day). I've also had a similar feeling of deadness when I stopped eating meat, dairy and anything with additives for 6 weeks. The first week or so I was completely useless - this could have also been due to me trying to feel my way through to a balanced diet. So much of what we consume ends up ha…

I went cold turkey from all caffeine. One day, almost 10 months ago I said enough is enough and quit. While on caffeine I was always highly irritated, and was snappy with people. I just couldn't get enough caffeine to feel good, and was always tired. When I went off I was dead to the world for about 2 - 3 weeks. I had a splitting headache which no medicine seemed to fix, and felt laggy. But after those 3 weeks I star…

"When I went off I was dead to the world for about 2 - 3 weeks.... Not drinking any soda has also helped in other ways. I no longer have a real need for sugar..."

You may be misattributing. Caffeine withdrawal is a matter of days [1]. 5 tops and I'm usually done in 2 or 3. (I've dropped cold turkey three times now, and each time I've personally experienced a marked decrease in my ability to function, but I've got various other possibly mitigating circumstances. I'm planning on trying again with my latest set of circumstances to see if it helps any as soon as my infant is no longer an infant.) Dropping that much sugar out of your diet can definitely take substantial time to acclimate to. (But it's a great thing to acclimate to.) You sound a lot more like someone who has gone through adjustment to a much lower carb lifestyle than someone who has gone off caffeine.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Tolerance_and_withdraw...

Re: Ritalin Gone Wrong

#127

Post by marshray »

sek wrote: post #121
marshray wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ability to concentrate and motivating yourself is something you have to develop yourself. I once thought this too. Everyone has issues with concentration and motivation. Most people deal with it through "self-discipline". This is great for them. The problem is that people who haven't experienced clinical levels of cognitive issues in themselves or with others close to them often find it very appealing to evaluate…

That is the reason a lot of people i know are taking Ritalin, without a diagnosis. These incredible improvements show all of them, it is out of question that the short term improvements are impressive. If you have read the original article, the question is if this can be sustained over a long period. When the person you know get's into his first job and he is totally dependent on Ritalin what happens when the effect…

Even at a coarse level there are hundreds of identified structures in the brain and hundreds of identified neurotransmitters like dopamine. Each neurotransmitter may act to produce different effects for each part of the brain.

No one will ever "fully understand" dopamine.

Almost all medications will have some side effects that patients and doctors have to balance against benefits. Good psych doctors know that everyone is an individual and even for the same individual treatments sometimes need to change.

I think your "dopamine dependency" concerns are greatly overblown.

Re: Ritalin Gone Wrong

#128

Post by obtino »

tokenadult wrote: post #4

I was interested to see that the researcher who wrote the op-ed, a psychologist based at my alma mater, has participated in some of the research projects he reviews in the op-ed. As I read the comments here, I'll be collecting ideas for questions to ask the local researcher in person as I try to learn more about ADD. I was particularly interested to see that the op-ed criticized several earlier studies for their stud…

One of the resources which psychartrists (and psychologists) use in the diagnosis of ADD/ADHD is by using the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders handbook (DSM).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manu...

Re: Ritalin Gone Wrong

#129

Post by X-Istence »

jerf wrote: post #126
X-Istence wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went cold turkey from all caffeine. One day, almost 10 months ago I said enough is enough and quit. While on caffeine I was always highly irritated, and was snappy with people. I just couldn't get enough caffeine to feel good, and was always tired. When I went off I was dead to the world for about 2 - 3 weeks. I had a splitting headache which no medicine seemed to fix, and felt laggy. But after those 3 weeks I star…

"When I went off I was dead to the world for about 2 - 3 weeks.... Not drinking any soda has also helped in other ways. I no longer have a real need for sugar ..." You may be misattributing. Caffeine withdrawal is a matter of days [1]. 5 tops and I'm usually done in 2 or 3. (I've dropped cold turkey three times now, and each time I've personally experienced a marked decrease in my ability to function, but I've got va…

I went from drinking four liters of mountain dew, 6 cups of coffee and taking 500 mg No-Doze caffeine pills to nothing.

It is possible that lower carb may have had something to do with it. One thing I did notice though is that in compensation I was eating a LOT more candy at first. I'd eat gummi worms and haribo gummi bears by the kilo. The local gas station started giving me discounts on swedish fish! Luckily I eased off that after about a month, and now I eat very little to almost no candy.

One thing I would note is that it has changed how I taste sugar. A lot of sugary drinks such as juice (even natural sugars) will quickly taste too sweet. I also find it harder to eat candy because it just has this disgustingly sweet taste to it. The other thing is that with drinking water with my meals instead of soda I am finding that a lot of foods are over salted, and could do with half the salt and still taste just as great. My personal believe is that people want taste even after making their taste buds taste something really sweet like soda.

Re: Ritalin Gone Wrong

#130

Post by xenophanes »

nerfhammer wrote: post #117
xenophanes wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know that you can't do double blind studies of stuff with such obvious effects, right? Anyone taking it instead of a sugar pill knows which pill they got.

Let's discard all statistical approaches to research then Gut reactions and vague impressions will get us by, just like they always have

Let's find applicable ones that work for our research, instead of always saying "double blind" without thinking about it.
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