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Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

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Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#101

Post by kwhitefoot »

InvOfSmallC wrote: post #96
adrianN wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Health insurance" is not a benefit in any EU country that I know of. Are there any EU countries where health insurance is as messed up as in the US?

Yes, most EU countries have free health services but health insurance is very common in both the Nordics and Southern Europe in my experience.

The Nordic countries might look similar to each other from the outside but in fact they often differ substantially.

In Norway (about 9% of the population [1]) at least it appears to be similar to the UK (about 13% or respondents to a survey[2])

So I'm not sure if that counts as very common and in Norway it is largely a perk offered by companies as part of the salary package rather than something that individuals choose for themselves.

On the other hand Denmark has about twice as many people with private health insurance [1] as Norway and about the same population.

[1] https://www.nrk.no/norge/nesten-en-halv-million-nordmenn-har...

[2] https://www.finder.com/uk/health-insurance-statistics

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#102

Post by x-complexity »

Self-publishing salary ranges without intense oversight will likely not properly work unless the following are fully utilized & followed to the letter:

- The company in question can only use salaries of existing roles, with string Levenshtein distance of 3 [0]. If it's a new role within the company, they're mandated to use the government's average salary.

- The company can only use the term "Expect {low_bound} - {high_bound}", where

(low_bound := min(current_salaries_for_role || government_average) * 0.85), and

(high_bound := max(current_salaries_for_role || government_average) * 1.15)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levenshtein_distance

Any given leeway would inevitably be used by corporations to misadvertise their job postings, so it must be paramount that the possible space & terms available be made extremely strict in anticipation of such abuse.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#104

Post by Simon_O_Rourke »

motohagiography wrote: post #14

The two reasons I disagree with publishing salaries and "ranges" are that a) the implicit collusion creates mean reversion that disadvantages talent, who can afford to leave and go where they are valued and b) the values behind it presume that a job is something paternalistic granted by a manager in return for supplication, and not due consideration for value offered. Together these create a race to the bottom in off…

> where people optimize to compete not on competence and value, but on debasing themselves and attrition with others.

That's all well and good - but then by that definition companies actively hire folks who are unable to do the actual work, and impact the company's bottom line, just because they're cheap. Companies that do that go out of business.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#105

Post by mchaver »

adrianN wrote: post #85
elric wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it. It'll be apples and oranges. Can't even compare salaries between companies in many countries because a salary isn't expressed as a single amount. It's a combination of some gross periodic amount, a random collection of benefits which differs from employer to employer, and even "the same" benefits can have radically different values (e.g. health insurance from provider A instead of provider B). There's no…

"Health insurance" is not a benefit in any EU country that I know of. Are there any EU countries where health insurance is as messed up as in the US?

Government employees in Spain have an option to use MUFACE which gives them access to private health centers. Some companies will offer private health insurance as a benefit. Most residents of Spain should have access to the public health system, exact details depend on each autonomous region.

Public health tends to have better resources, but longer wait times. Private health has shorter wait times, though these would definitely increase if more people started using it.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#106

Post by richardw »

patrickk wrote: post #80
switch007 wrote: post #78

Recruiters seem to be already ahead of the curve with “salary up to ”. Absolutely useless information that they give

It's mentioned in the article that a salary range should be published. So a minimum and maximum amount should be listed in a job posting to avoid this kind of nonsense.

Nonsense can still occur: "salary range $10000 to $5000000".

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#107

Post by samtho »

x-complexity wrote: post #102

Self-publishing salary ranges without intense oversight will likely not properly work unless the following are fully utilized & followed to the letter: - The company in question can only use salaries of existing roles, with string Levenshtein distance of 3 [0]. If it's a new role within the company, they're mandated to use the government's average salary. - The company can only use the term "Expect {low_bound} - {hig…

This is still better than nothing. If a company thinks a staff software engineer is worth a maximum of $95k, for example, I would be able to spot this before wasting anyone’s time with an application and potentially an interview.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#108

Post by troad »

x-complexity wrote: post #102

Self-publishing salary ranges without intense oversight will likely not properly work unless the following are fully utilized & followed to the letter: - The company in question can only use salaries of existing roles, with string Levenshtein distance of 3 [0]. If it's a new role within the company, they're mandated to use the government's average salary. - The company can only use the term "Expect {low_bound} - {hig…

Yes god forbid employers are allowed to - checks notes - set wages. The Ministry of Truth knows better than they do what they can afford to pay for a given role!

I applaud efforts to make companies publish salary ranges. It corrects an information disparity that leads to inefficiency. But what you propose (basically government-set salaries) is economically illiterate and would do nothing but harm employers and employees alike (not to mention the broader economy).

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#109

Post by patrickk »

adrianN wrote: post #85
elric wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it. It'll be apples and oranges. Can't even compare salaries between companies in many countries because a salary isn't expressed as a single amount. It's a combination of some gross periodic amount, a random collection of benefits which differs from employer to employer, and even "the same" benefits can have radically different values (e.g. health insurance from provider A instead of provider B). There's no…

"Health insurance" is not a benefit in any EU country that I know of. Are there any EU countries where health insurance is as messed up as in the US?

In Germany, private health insurance is the norm above a certain salary level (it's not actually mandatory but when you read about it online, makes it seem so). There is a hybrid private-public insurance option below that level.

It's common for employers to subsidise the private insurance at least.

And no, it's not messed up like in the US, although it's a large expense by European standards/cheap by US standards (the insurance companies raise the rates every year, and are protected by legislation in doing so, a bit like a utility company).

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#110

Post by patrickk »

richardw wrote: post #106
patrickk wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's mentioned in the article that a salary range should be published. So a minimum and maximum amount should be listed in a job posting to avoid this kind of nonsense.

Nonsense can still occur: "salary range $10000 to $5000000".

As noted elsewhere in the discussion, the EU tends to come down heavily on companies who violate the spirit of the law like that. Not to say it won't happen, but high profile examples will be clamped down on like Apple with the USB-C trickery.
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