Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Thomas Midgley Jr. invented leaded gasoline and chlorofluorocarbons

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 154 posts

Re: Thomas Midgley Jr. invented leaded gasoline and chlorofluorocarbons

#91

Post by Weneedlead »

starkparker wrote: post #23
somenameforme wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also emphasize a more social issue to this. There's also a tendency for society to discount the dangers of something when the impact is sporadically distributed or long-term. Beyond the endless corporate lobbying and sold out scientists/politicians working to convince everybody that leaded fuel was 100% safe, I think there was also probably a mindset of many in society that 'Well, if leaded fuel is so poisono…

The Nation's story on it dives much deeper. There was an out and out panic about lead and leaded gasoline in the 1920s that GM and Ethyl/du Pont had to squash, which Midgely happily participated in. https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/secret-history-lea...

[flagged]

Re: Thomas Midgley Jr. invented leaded gasoline and chlorofluorocarbons

#92

Post by Weneedlead »

orf wrote: post #63
Weneedlead wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they never get to the stage when you talk nonsense when they drink alcohol. (they can't readily tell, it seems, they need to test you in some way) I'm saying that the majority is now psychopaths. I'm still more inclined that the drop in IQ is an artifact, but even if intelligence is improved in some way, it's useless when the person is asocial. Not my first post, not that it matters.

It’s very hard to tell the difference between both your comments and conspiratorial ramblings (psychopaths have an unnaturally high alcohol tolerance?), hence the flagging and downvoting. It’s also hard to tell what your point actually is. I’d advise re-thinking how you structure your thoughts or writing.

Lead deficiency makes people asocial, which is why we've seen the downturn of western industries. That was my point.

Re: Thomas Midgley Jr. invented leaded gasoline and chlorofluorocarbons

#93

Post by rob74 »

prennert wrote: post #45

This Cautionary Tales podcast episode talks about him [0]. Both were invented in the service of DuPont. CFC at least helped making refrigeration safer and helped getting it to the masses. Leaded gasoline on the other hand was always known as a bad idea. In both cases though, DuPont fought back hard to prevent bans of these solutions. They rather kill the planet than their profits. Suitably enough he killed himself wi…

Speaking of DuPont, they also were among the first to introduce PFAs with Teflon - although in this case I don't think anybody suspected what implications that may have at the time...

Re: Thomas Midgley Jr. invented leaded gasoline and chlorofluorocarbons

#94

Post by than3 »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #84
qqtt wrote: post #22

Friendly reminder that leaded gas is still used all over the United States today in airports (avgas). And if you live near an airport you are probably affected by elevated lead levels. https://news.sccgov.org/news-release/study-commissioned-coun...

Blood lead levels are overwhelmingly affected by local exposure, basically the history of lead use where you live, work and your food is from. While leaded avgas is not great the FAA just approved a replacement and I'm sure it will be in use quickly because "hurr durr muh lead" is the rallying cry of obnoxious suburbanites who just bought a house beside an airport and now want it shut down and everyone involved in ge…

The problem with this line of plausible but non-scientific thought is that you base it solely on 'blood lead levels' as though they would be constant, without explaining the process taken to test. The latter part is critically important with heavy metals.

Heavy metals in general never stay in the blood very long, the body binds them as quickly as it can, and the only way to accurately test involves taking a chelator first (to cause it to release into the blood stream) and then testing for acute poisoning (by causing it). There may be newer methods that have been developed since, but as of 2008 that was true.

Anyone who has suffered mercury or lead poisoning that was diagnosed by a medical professional would be aware of this, which is why there is no safe level, it bioaccumulates, and is a time-bomb for acute poisoning if it ever gets released.

Incidentally cilantro is a powerful chelator, and is used in food. Many people who have suffered poisoning get powerful headaches and other poisoning symptoms which can mimic many symptoms on the ADD/Autism/ADHD spectrum when eating this food, and often themselves don't know why.

Re: Thomas Midgley Jr. invented leaded gasoline and chlorofluorocarbons

#95

Post by causi »

prennert wrote: post #54
swixmix wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polio was absolutely terrible for those who had it. I wouldn’t blame him for having it. Or for ending it. However, for other reasons, I agree with you. http://acshist.scs.illinois.edu/bulletin_open_access/v31-2/v...

I did not mean to blame him for having polio. I just meant to say that his solution to his mobility problems came with significant tech debt that came to hang him later.

It was not a tech debt issue. He used it to commit suicide.

Re: Thomas Midgley Jr. invented leaded gasoline and chlorofluorocarbons

#96

Post by mschuster91 »

twarge wrote: post #73
prennert wrote: post #45

This Cautionary Tales podcast episode talks about him [0]. Both were invented in the service of DuPont. CFC at least helped making refrigeration safer and helped getting it to the masses. Leaded gasoline on the other hand was always known as a bad idea. In both cases though, DuPont fought back hard to prevent bans of these solutions. They rather kill the planet than their profits. Suitably enough he killed himself wi…

Propane is a shockingly better refrigerant. Sure, it's flammable, but is it really unsafe? It's widely used in commercial units.

> It's widely used in commercial units.

That right here is the point. With commercial units, you can be relatively sure only trained professionals will touch it, it will be somewhat decently maintained, and installation will be done with decent quality. With anything consumer-retail? As a manufacturer, you'll have to include absolutely ridiculously dumb people into your risk estimation, and you don't want to risk headlines like "Exploding brand XYZ AC unit kills family in house fire" because the father who had installed it caused a leak in the propane circuit - people won't care about that distinction, they'll see your brand as tarnished and unsafe.

Re: Thomas Midgley Jr. invented leaded gasoline and chlorofluorocarbons

#97

Post by belorn »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #84
qqtt wrote: post #22

Friendly reminder that leaded gas is still used all over the United States today in airports (avgas). And if you live near an airport you are probably affected by elevated lead levels. https://news.sccgov.org/news-release/study-commissioned-coun...

Blood lead levels are overwhelmingly affected by local exposure, basically the history of lead use where you live, work and your food is from. While leaded avgas is not great the FAA just approved a replacement and I'm sure it will be in use quickly because "hurr durr muh lead" is the rallying cry of obnoxious suburbanites who just bought a house beside an airport and now want it shut down and everyone involved in ge…

For some reasons, every area in close proximity to airports with moderate to high piston engine aircraft traffic have exceptional high local exposure (according to EPA). There could be a correlation or even a causation link. EPA at least think so, which is why they changed the rules in 2008 by issuing a new minimum standard.

The new replacement fuels are good, but they have one general large drawback. They require a recertification of the engine/frame of the plane. According to the lobby group AOPA, it will cost the industry in excess of $150 billion annually in the US alone.

In response, EPA issued an statement that there will be no phase-out date for planes to meet the new minimum standard, saying that it is the FAA responsibility to issue a process so that airplanes fulfills the new minimum standard. The FAA in turn said that regulating lead in avgas is an EPA responsibility, and they will not issue a phase-out date for planes to meet the new minimum standard.

That has been the last word from both agencies since 2010.

Re: Thomas Midgley Jr. invented leaded gasoline and chlorofluorocarbons

#98

Post by Weneedlead »

eternityforest wrote: post #71
Weneedlead wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a lie. The effects are always beneficial except in extreme doses. No dose that makes no difference is exactly what you would expect from a nutrient. Lead activates the proteins it supoosedly poisons: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/12425341_Inorganic_... Yes, teeth and bones use most of the lead that you consume. But why is there lead in the teeth of neandethals? https://www.mountsinai.org/about/newsroo…

Where's the evidence that those proteins need "activating"? The body has plenty of functions that are best left on their default settings or minimized. For that matter, activating and poisoning aren't even mutually exclusive, you can run an engine too fast and burn it, work out till you get rhabdo and your P looks like T, etc. To show it's healthy you'd need studies showing better health of exposed people, or at leas…

>The body has plenty of functions that are best left on their default settings or minimized.

We're arguing what the 'default' is. I'm arguing the default state is with lead. It would be strange for a protein to evolve to get so easily activated by a toxin.

>To show it's healthy you'd need studies showing better health of exposed people, or at least some theoretical reason you'd want lead to make it even plausible.

I thing it's completely uncontroversial that the current typical human health is at the historic rock bottom.

There is no reason theoretical or not to believe it is toxic in the first place, except for the strange claim that the body uses it in error.

>The neanderthals probably ate stuff from lead rich soil or something, that doesn't prove it wasn't harmful.

That's an absurd claim, and really grasping at straws, don't you think? Mote that the remains aren't many. It isn't that they sieved through thousands of teeth to find a couple that were poisoned.

Re: Thomas Midgley Jr. invented leaded gasoline and chlorofluorocarbons

#99

Post by gmac »

kergonath wrote: post #70
paulpauper wrote: post #19

The Brilliant Inventor Who Made Two of History’s Biggest Mistakes Biggest ever? more than nuclear weapons? A bit of a stretch to say ever. I think this is disputable.

[flagged]

> Nuclear weapons really have not killed that many people.

... so far.

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/public-awareness-of-nucl...

Re: Thomas Midgley Jr. invented leaded gasoline and chlorofluorocarbons

#100

Post by than3 »

Weneedlead wrote: post #90
than3 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ver, the guy is a bot pushing a narrative that will harm anyone following it, contact an HN mod and flag his post. That's all you can really do.

[flagged]

The mods will deal with you for breaking their rules. You are not my problem to fix.
Post reply on HN