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Leaving China

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Re: Leaving China

#641

Post by RedCondor »

fortuna86 wrote: post #640
RedCondor wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Since the man of common sense makes his appeal to feeling, to an oracle within his breast, he is finished and done with anyone who does not agree; he only has to explain that he has nothing more to say to anyone who does not find and feel the same in himself. In other words, he tramples underfoot the roots of humanity. For it is in the nature of humanity to press onward to agreement with others; human nature only re…

> Self-awareness is not your strong point It's funny how i've said everything I need to say already. You aren't as complicated as you think you are.

I've presented heavy evidence in favour of my position, you've presented Wikipedia. I agree that it's not complicated.

Re: Leaving China

#642

Post by fortuna86 »

hayst4ck wrote: post #501
fortuna86 wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you audit every election after they are done, what is the danger of using electric voting machines ?

This might sound snide, but I assure you I am asking in good faith to prove a point. What does it mean to audit the election, without skipping the complexity? A few questions I would expect to be answered: How do we know all votes cast were legitimate? How do we know that the voting machines recorded votes correctly? How do we know the auditors are good faith actors? How do we know ballots weren't lost/delayed (mail…

> I really would like an explanation of what audit means. I am open to the idea of being surprised by a satisfying answer, but I am also asking because I don't think the answer will be satisfying.

Every electronic vote has a physical record, and is checked against each other. Fraud/mistakes occur, but never at the scale to shift any election.

More: https://www.eac.gov/election-officials/election-audits-acros...

Re: Leaving China

#643

Post by mechanical_bear »

RedCondor wrote: post #570
mechanical_bear wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Generally speaking when someone asks that question it is with an eye to disqualifying a speaker they don't want to listen to, on the basis of ad-hominem. Latin America? "You're ignorant, you know nothing!" China? "You're under their sway!" America? "Hypocrite!" I tend to prefer to simply not allow the discussion to veer in that direction, and keep people guessing if they must.

It lets others understand perspective a bit better.

Re: Leaving China

#644

Post by tjs8rj »

dragonwriter wrote: post #587
tjs8rj wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the coup narrative so pervasive? There was no institutional support, nobody got killed except for a rioter, they all cleared out promptly by curfew. By all indications it was a riot and a pretty mild one at that given the previous summer. How is that a coup? We know what rioters are capable of when they actually want to overthrow govt: look at the autonomous zones and capitals that got ransacked in the upper n…

> How is the coup narrative so pervasive? Because the fairly explicit goal was an autocoup. > There was no institutional support False. > nobody got killed except for a rioter, Even a successful coup is possible with no one getting killed; > they all cleared out promptly by curfew Because the coup attempt had already failed . > By all indications it was a riot and a pretty mild one at that given the previous summer.…

Why did the "coup" fail? We've all seen the videos, police never really showed up in force, army never showed up, national guard never showed up. It ended because...people went home. If it were actually an attempted coup, why didn't they dig in? Why didn't a single politician back them?

You just seem convinced of a coup and nothing will shake you. What did they do that was wholly different from a regular riot? Even on the inside they're just taking photos and walking around.

Re: Leaving China

#645

Post by iforgotpassword »

sfmike wrote: post #631
iforgotpassword wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They got all the know how from the US as a jump start. Plus loads of financial aid especially during the 90s. Sure, during the 2000s they moved ahead as they weren't stupid and didn't blow that chance, they're smart and hard working, but their rise is ultimately due to the US great interest in that island for military/strategic reasons.

Still really off the mark. Things like TSMC were started in a lonely garage in a warehouse district in Taipei. No USA help in sight. USA have given a few planes here and there but that's not even close to 1% of the support to have given Taiwan's rise. USA got all the know how from ancient China too. Financial aid is correlative not causative as a majority of countries receive it and don't rise like Taiwan has so it's…

> Things like TSMC were started in a lonely garage in a warehouse district in Taipei.

What a romantic reinterpretation of reality. TSMC was founded by a guy who studied at MIT and then worked in semiconductors at Texas Instruments for over twenty years, after which he was tasked by Taiwans government to develop the country's technological sector.

> USA have given a few planes here and there but that's not even close to 1% of the support to have given Taiwan's rise.

Maybe if you total it over the last 6 decades or so. It's hardly surprising they don't need financial support for their economy today. In the 50s, their GDP didn't even hit one billion yet, and over that decade and the early 60s, the US provided more than 2 billion dollars in financial aid, in the early years over 10% of their GDP. No other Asian country ever received that much financial aid (in relative terms). This was absolutely a relevant factor that jump started their economy.

Re: Leaving China

#646

Post by onethought »

ninjin wrote: post #629
onethought wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How does this address my question about alternative vaccines? There is not enough of them. Even the local license doesn't mean china can suddenly manufacture 1 billion doses every 12 weeks. > And were any of these actions even remotely like what we saw in the PRC? Which country has remotely the kind of population and living density of china? India? Good example of what happens if you don't do what china did: Everyo…

I have tried to get through to you and clearly failed. You still keep repeating the same points: “no other tool” and “no other option”. I and others have demonstrated to you that far more lenient measures than those used in the PRC were applied across the globe, yet you keep on insisting that any level of forced isolation or even encouragements (without legal repercussions) are equivalent to what we saw Beijing roll…

I was arguing in good faith. You haven’t shown anything. You just kept repeating “a range of tools were used” but didn’t mention one.

This whole thread is standard anti-China rhetoric. It refuses to acknowledge the facts of the situation and prefers to go with the narrative of CCP are dumb and evil.

I don’t assume bad faith, I assume a kind of indoctrination of western group think. To have Americans (a large portion of folks replying here) look down their nose at chinas response while their own country had one of the highest deaths/capita is brainwash territory to me.

Re: Leaving China

#647

Post by hayst4ck »

fortuna86 wrote: post #642
hayst4ck wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might sound snide, but I assure you I am asking in good faith to prove a point. What does it mean to audit the election, without skipping the complexity? A few questions I would expect to be answered: How do we know all votes cast were legitimate? How do we know that the voting machines recorded votes correctly? How do we know the auditors are good faith actors? How do we know ballots weren't lost/delayed (mail…

> I really would like an explanation of what audit means. I am open to the idea of being surprised by a satisfying answer, but I am also asking because I don't think the answer will be satisfying. Every electronic vote has a physical record, and is checked against each other. Fraud/mistakes occur, but never at the scale to shift any election. More: https://www.eac.gov/election-officials/election-audits-acros...

That's an hour long technical read. Do you think your average person with high school or a GED as their highest level of education or less, ~40% of the country, is going to be able to read such a meaty document and make sense of it?

8% of Americans are basically illiterate. 54% read below a 6th grade level.

I am not trying to attack you with that statement. This is a statement form one liberal to someone else I perceive as liberal leaning:

Your education privilege is off the charts.

We could have a system like Taiwan, but instead we have an electronic voting system. How do they compare and contrast? Why were electronic voting machines pushed on us? Which one has better understand-ability properties? Which one has better trust properties? What are the properties of electronic voting machines that make them desirable? Why do we have to convince people that voting machines are good (implying a lot of people don't think they are)?

Re: Leaving China

#648

Post by onethought »

opinionsonly01 wrote: post #633
onethought wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, my original point included Melbourne as well. Singapore and Taiwan both did lockdowns as well. Not as long as China true, so your point really is the semantics of length? No, I'm not from China, but that has little to do with any point I've made. Vaccines were never an option for Chinese, they had a locally made one that didn't work well enough, and they could have never secured the number required of mRNA. If it…

They were an option. China refused to approve Pfizer despite having distribution rights in HK/Macau/China, and manufacturing facilities to produce it in China. Instead opting for local vaccines. You claim Singapore / Taiwan had extended lockdowns > This is false. You claim China could never secure mRNA vaccines > This is false. You claim Chinese are free to travel to HK (to get the vaccine) > This is false.

Singapore locked down from early April to June… 2 months. You don’t think that’s a lockdown? Did China have a lockdown last more than 2 months? I don’t think so. Shanghai was probably the longest and was roughly 2 months long (hard to tell because it started in suburbs only, unlike Singapore that was the whole city), or Wuhan itself in the beginning. So what are you talking about? Pretending that I’m making false statements. You invented this bullshit “extended lockdown” term then didn’t realise Singapore actually did do a longer lockdown than almost all Chinese cities. Good one. :D

Taiwan locked down very early in all cases taking spread to zero and then blocked anyone entering the country. Similar to New Zealand. You don’t call that a lockdown?

Show me where 6 billion doses of mRNA are being produced every 12 weeks? Then I’ll believe China could have procured them.

Chinese are free to travel to hk. There are exceptions of course. But the majority can visit (assuming they had the means) - but that wouldn’t change the fact that HK only had a few million doses so couldn’t possibly help on the mRNA front

Re: Leaving China

#649

Post by hayst4ck »

fortuna86 wrote: post #642
hayst4ck wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might sound snide, but I assure you I am asking in good faith to prove a point. What does it mean to audit the election, without skipping the complexity? A few questions I would expect to be answered: How do we know all votes cast were legitimate? How do we know that the voting machines recorded votes correctly? How do we know the auditors are good faith actors? How do we know ballots weren't lost/delayed (mail…

> I really would like an explanation of what audit means. I am open to the idea of being surprised by a satisfying answer, but I am also asking because I don't think the answer will be satisfying. Every electronic vote has a physical record, and is checked against each other. Fraud/mistakes occur, but never at the scale to shift any election. More: https://www.eac.gov/election-officials/election-audits-acros...

> Fraud/mistakes occur, but never at the scale to shift any election.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_close_election_results

Re: Leaving China

#650

Post by dang »

nebukhadnezzar wrote: post #142
RedCondor wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Latin American and very, very happy we have China as an alternative to America's tyrannical Monroe Doctrine. The demonization of China feels incredibly absurd, like when someone wearing an exceedingly ugly outfit, lacking self-awareness, tries to criticize someone else's fashion.

Full mask off now, who would want to live in a democracy if you can live under the boot of an authoritarian narcissistic personality cult.

This sort of flamewar will get you banned here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

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