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Leaving China

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Re: Leaving China

#581

Post by fortuna86 »

jeromegv wrote: post #367
fortuna86 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

every single election in the US is subject to a complete audit after the fact. counting quickly and verifying accurately after the fact are not mutually exclusive.

Considering how close you came to a coup and how the elected president could spend months trying to destroy democracy while also personally using his power and influence to try to sway local officials, it doesn’t seem like the complete audit isn’t really helping. Especially when 40%+ of the population thinks those audits are manufactured lies from main stream media.

To be clear, Trump attempted a coup based on no evidence of fraud. What would preventing him from doing the same, no matter how elections are run?

Hell he declared the elections fraudulent before they happened. What can possibly be done to prevent that from an elections standpoint?

Re: Leaving China

#582

Post by fxtentacle »

finfrastrcuture wrote: post #568
petesergeant wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thailand is weird[0], in that there's no love lost at all for mainland Chinese or Chinese tourists, but it's very socially important to have a Chinese grandparent or two. [0]: Actually I think this is true of most of South East Asia where the Chinese community doesn't have as distinct a separation as Malaysia and Singapore

My understanding [0] from speaking with locals throughout SE Asia is a general resentment towards mainland Chinese tourists which boils down to - what else - money. It turns out most Chinese tour operators throughout SE Asia run a completely vertical business, wherein they own all touchpoints their guests interact with (e.g. the restaurants, the bus company, the gift shops, etc.). Further, these are all staffed by im…

> It turns out most Chinese tour operators throughout SE Asia run a completely vertical business, wherein they own all touchpoints their guests interact with (e.g. the restaurants, the bus company, the gift shops, etc.). Further, these are all staffed by immigrant Chinese. This results in all tourism profits being captured by Chinese nationals and businesses (and being exported back home as remittances) while burdening local infrastructure. Locals hate this.

I heard the exact same complaint in Italy. Chinese tourist groups come to Venice, annoy all the locals by dropping trash on the floor, but only buy their souvenirs at Chinese-owned gift shops. And they sleep on the Chinese-owned cruise ship.

Re: Leaving China

#583

Post by maxloh »

throw48294858 wrote: post #283
jasonjei wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an extremely interesting question because I’ve heard various viewpoints. The vast majority want to keep the “technical debt” (legacy code being “Republic of China”) of this uneasy bridge to China—that is trade and movement of people between the strait, and maintaining the status quo of the “Republic of China” government (controlling Taiwan) and PRC (controlling China or “mainland”). Many Taiwanese don’t want…

Interestingly the protest in Hong Kong was triggered by a Hongkonger who murdered his girlfriend while they were vacationing in Taiwan. Taiwan was in negotiations with Hong Kong to extradite him and the protestors were afraid of the implications. In the end, a much stronger National Security Law was passed after the riots and the murderer still walks free.

> Taiwan was in negotiations with Hong Kong to extradite him and the protestors were afraid of the implications.

No.

The HK government broke off the negotiations on purpose. They want to use that as an excuse to pass some laws that gain Beijing more control over HK.

It was the proposed laws that terrified HongKongers, not the negotiations.

Re: Leaving China

#584

Post by tjs8rj »

jeromegv wrote: post #367
fortuna86 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

every single election in the US is subject to a complete audit after the fact. counting quickly and verifying accurately after the fact are not mutually exclusive.

Considering how close you came to a coup and how the elected president could spend months trying to destroy democracy while also personally using his power and influence to try to sway local officials, it doesn’t seem like the complete audit isn’t really helping. Especially when 40%+ of the population thinks those audits are manufactured lies from main stream media.

How is the coup narrative so pervasive? There was no institutional support, nobody got killed except for a rioter, they all cleared out promptly by curfew. By all indications it was a riot and a pretty mild one at that given the previous summer. How is that a coup?

We know what rioters are capable of when they actually want to overthrow govt: look at the autonomous zones and capitals that got ransacked in the upper north west (Seattle, Portland, etc). Those were over weeks where cops weren't allowed into entire city blogs, they declared themselves autonomous, and people were killed to that ends. They also received tons of institutional support from media, politicians, and wealthy people.

I don't get how any honest assessment takes the actions by the partisans in DC as a coup. At LEAST the other riots were coups too, or more truly, only the leftist partisan riots can be considered attempted local coups given their stated goals and actions.

If you remember how the narrative evolved in real-time: in the preceding months the talking point was "only leftists riot", then on the capital riot and following days, the dominant narrative was "SEE! right wing people ALSO riot". Only days after that did the language start to coalesce around "actually this was was a COUP", and even then it was seen as hyperbolic even on reddit. Now it's been repeated so many times it's just taken as fact.

Re: Leaving China

#585

Post by aflag »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #562
aflag wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no reason to think people in North Korea aren't just as nice and just as terrible as people in Seattle or anywhere else, really. The political system in North Korea is atrocious, but the point was that people are people.

My counterpoint is that while "people are people", they are impacted and influenced by their material, cultural, and political circumstances. People can become hardened, callous, mean, and damaged to a greater or lesser degree in durable ways that outlast political circumstance. If you beat and abuse a child, and that child will be more likely to beat and abuse others. This is called the cycle of violence. You can ab…

I understand and agree with what you said. But I'd say what you're describing is how people are affected in a superficial level. In the façade they present to strangers. However, I interpreted the original post to mean that, in an intimate level (within a group of friends who trust each other), it won't be that different. But yes, it may be that you are in a place where for whatever reason you can't form meaningful relationships with others. Usually that happens to people who leave their countries, rather than the ones who stay. But sometimes, it can be the other way around.

Anyway, I think the original point is that you really live in the small group of friends and your interactions with strangers, while also part of life, it's less meaningful. So, you can find a culture that matches you more closely, but unless the culture you are in is completely disgusting to you, you're probably optimising the wrong thing.

Re: Leaving China

#586

Post by tarsinge »

blackbear_ wrote: post #451
scrubs wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although off topic from the original post, would you entertain this question? What's Taiwan's position on integration with China? What does Taiwan want for itself? I'd like to hear more about that minus American and Chinese input.

Feel free to check this report from The Economist: https://www.economist.com/special-report/2023-03-11 Table of contents: - Taiwan: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat - The past: How Taiwan is shaped by its history and identity - The economy: It is time to divert Taiwan’s trade and investment from China - Semiconductors: Taiwan’s dominance of the chip industry makes it more important - The home fro…

Mention of the chip industry makes it hard to take the source as unbiased from US side. Other comments were more insightful on the perspective of Taiwanese and on the cultural and historical aspects.

Re: Leaving China

#587

Post by dragonwriter »

tjs8rj wrote: post #584
jeromegv wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering how close you came to a coup and how the elected president could spend months trying to destroy democracy while also personally using his power and influence to try to sway local officials, it doesn’t seem like the complete audit isn’t really helping. Especially when 40%+ of the population thinks those audits are manufactured lies from main stream media.

How is the coup narrative so pervasive? There was no institutional support, nobody got killed except for a rioter, they all cleared out promptly by curfew. By all indications it was a riot and a pretty mild one at that given the previous summer. How is that a coup? We know what rioters are capable of when they actually want to overthrow govt: look at the autonomous zones and capitals that got ransacked in the upper n…

> How is the coup narrative so pervasive?

Because the fairly explicit goal was an autocoup.

> There was no institutional support

False.

> nobody got killed except for a rioter,

Even a successful coup is possible with no one getting killed;

> they all cleared out promptly by curfew

Because the coup attempt had already failed.

> By all indications it was a riot and a pretty mild one at that given the previous summer. How is that a coup?

“Coup” is not defined by intensity but by objective. The overtly intent was to use intimidation and/or violence against government officials to coerce a rejection of the electoral votes from sufficient states to allow the sitting President to extend his term nothwithstanding having been defeated in the election, at the instigation of the sitting President. It is a textbook autocoup attempt by its goals and ultimate instigation, which failed because the rioters were held back long enough for members of Congress to escape, but not by a wide margin.

Was it a hastily conceived, poorly coordinated, amateurish autocoup attempt? Yes, absolutely. Does that reduce its severity as a crime? No, no it doesn’t.

> I don't get how any honest assessment takes the actions by the partisans in DC as a coup.

It was a coup attempt, specifically an attempted autocoup. It wasn't a coup, because it failed.

> At LEAST the other riots were coups

No, none of those were coups, or even coup attempts. (The “Autonomous Zone” might be viewed as a hyperlocalized secession attempt, but that’s a distinct thing from a coup, seeking to separate territory from the control of an established government, not unlawfully take or extend control of said government.)

Re: Leaving China

#588

Post by dirtyid »

re-thc wrote: post #380
dirtyid wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nativist attitude predated NSL, when HK had their obscene privileges and responded to rapid shift in culture due to mainland immigration by shitting on the outgroup like many groups in the west in the last decade. The original post touches on why - HK supremacy where taxi drivers can afford to have multiple mainland mistresses like the 90s ended as PRC caught up. Incidentally PRC tier 1/2 is where $$$ money is made n…

> Yes a lot of perks are justifiably constrained, because they never took the one country part of 1C2S seriously. Is that just your vision of the country? As per the other comments before Xi started the country went in a different direction. Just because you're supporting another faction does not make HK a wrong? > Meanwhile it's great for PRC nationals now, which is frankly how it ought to be. Your bias is clear as…

>just your vision of the country

No, that's the OG 1C2S vision, and frankly anyone with half a brain should understand why. HK was to implement NSL on her own, with PRC having unilateral ability to implement if HK politics took too long or security situation dictates. Boils down to this:

PRC gave HK 20 YEARS. 20 YEARS where HK existed in a national security state of exception where they can operate as a spyhub into PRC and HKers can conspire with foreign influence consequence free. That patience/benevolence on the CCP part is bordering on retarded. Literally no country in the world that's not a basket case would allow such a lapse in security to exist. Including HK under british admin. Every CCP leader since handover has hounded HK to pass NSL on their own. They failed, because they never took 1C part of 2S seriously. HK is wrong because when given the opportunity to govern itself, it failed with respect to national security, which is near #1 thing on the list of sovereign priorities.

Of course the west/US looks at this absurd situation and tries to defend it because it benefits them. But it’s not complicated - national security oversight applies to all subjects and every inch of a sovereign soil is the norm. HK is not special in that way anymore, but IT WAS NEVER SUPPOSE TO BE,

>turning a blind eye to it all

It's mild because most they did was arrest and purge a bunch of compromised candidates with connections abroad, again treason. Incumbent HK political class drunk on western influence was overdue for purge post NSL, like why would anyone allow compromised candidates to run for office? Except PRC did for 20 years, leading to accumulation of rot. ~200 arrested and ~125 charged almost 3 years post NSL is kid gloves.

>Trump and anything else is treason

I'm saying storming the capitol hill / legco in HK will get your movement stomped regardless of affiliations. Heads roll when gov building starts being attacked.

Re: Leaving China

#589

Post by _-david-_ »

RedCondor wrote: post #105
ren_engineer wrote: post #64

>But in order to live everyday life, most people living in China find it necessary to turn a blind eye until it affects them directly. That became impossible during the Covid-19 pandemic, when the force of China’s technocracy was on full display it's amazing how people were able to delude themselves for so long, Tiananmen should have been enough to make people and governments realize things weren't going to change

[dead]

I hope you were paid more than 50 cents for all the bootlicking you have been engaging in through this thread. If the West is as bad as you say, please just move to China and leave the rest of us alone.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party

Re: Leaving China

#590

Post by concordDance »

eloisant wrote: post #514
concordDance wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have the same name, which makes it confusing. E.g. if someone is French does that mean their ethnicity or their nationality?

That's a bad example because France isn't really an ethnicity. It's a group of regions that used to speak different languages even after World War II. You have Bretons that are ethnically close to Irish/Scotish, Alsaciens who are ethnically Germans, Basque who are similar to the Spanish Basque, Corse who want to be independent... A better example of a country that more or less encompass an ethnicity would be Germany,…

French is indeed an ethnicity in that there's a shared set of values, cultural traits and genes that you can distinguish from, say, the Greeks.

The fact that it has substructure and blurred lines doesn't mean it isn't a valid abstraction.

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