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Leaving China

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Re: Leaving China

#621

Post by onethought »

re-thc wrote: post #523
roca wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their vaccines weren't great but mandating them would have been a lot better than nothing.

For the people? Not for the politicians and executives. Any stats that show the vaccines as performing worse than the competition would hurt sales.

Sinovac was something terrible like 50-62% efficacy. While also not provably stopping transmission. The spread would have continued and there was no evidence it would have reduced the burden on hospitals. It would definitely be worse for people.

The reason PRC never said it publicly is because that would have been terrible for them politically as well.

Re: Leaving China

#622

Post by onethought »

ospider wrote: post #534
onethought wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is still a lockdown. So the argument isn’t against Chinese doing lockdowns, it’s “how” they did them?

You have no idea of how bad a Chinese lockdown can go. There are literraly two versions of lockdown in the world: the lockdown and the Chinese lockdown.

Does any one person know what multiple lockdowns are like? I think by definition we all only experienced 1... 2 if we were really (un)lucky.

Was India's lack of lockdown, hospitals failing, people dying in the streets on mass "better" than a Chinese lockdown?

Re: Leaving China

#623

Post by fortuna86 »

RedCondor wrote: post #616
fortuna86 wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Your sources are compromised, here's a quote from Fidel Castro and a random blog titled "China Has Billionaires" that doesn't actually talk about China at all, just "US is bad China opposes US therefore..." Self-awareness is not your strong point. And your mix of conspiracy and partisan bile being challenged here is evidence this is a healthy online community, not the opposite. Perhaps you would feel better somewher…

I'm having a lot of fun, actually. But you can keep pretending you know what you're talking about, citing Wikipedia. I guess from your perspective that's fun too.

> I'm having a lot of fun, actually.

I don't doubt that. Trolling is fun for lots of people.

Re: Leaving China

#624

Post by midoridensha »

fortuna86 wrote: post #596
concordDance wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How hard an election is to rig is not the issue,itshow obviously unriggable it appears to the losing voters. That's the (well, an) important thing the American system is missing.

I disagree. There was no evidence of fraud in 2020, yet the losing party at 80-90% rate still believes it was stolen. At that point, there's nothing that can be done to dissuade.

I thought there was evidence of fraud in 2020, but the problem was that the "evidence" was bogus. One of the complaints I remember was that the results swung sharply from one side to the other at some point in the reporting process, but that of course was because the initial results were from in-person voting, and the mail-in/drop-in votes were counted last, so when those results were added, then suddenly the "blue" candidates were winning, because the red voters tended to vote in-person far more than their blue counterparts. The red voters somehow refuse to believe this however and think the election was rigged.

Re: Leaving China

#625

Post by roca »

krapp wrote: post #519
roca wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Why is Biden canceling student debt then?

He isn't. State governors sued him over the potential loss in tax revenue and SCOTUS is likely going to rule against it because the court is stacked with right-wingers. Also see gun laws being nowhere near as strict as people would like, and Roe v. Wade being repealed, with hard anti-abortion laws and bans being enacted in states where a majority of citizens are pro-choice. The politics of the general American popula…

So the Biden administration isn't really trying to cancel student debt? They are faking the attempt, secure in the knowledge that courts will strike it down? That sounds like an A-grade conspiracy theory to me.

> The only citizens whose interests really matter in the US are conservatives, Christians and (of course, because the US is an oligarchy) billionaires. Everyone else is a serf who takes whatever scraps fall from the table.

So all my non-conservative, non-Christian, non-billionaire Bay Area tech worker friends, who are doing very well for themselves, are "taking scraps"? Come on, that's ludicrous.

Re: Leaving China

#626

Post by roca »

photochemsyn wrote: post #560
roca wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of relatively rich countries are in the TPP, including my country, NZ. It has significant rules protecting labour and environmental conditions. It's fine. From your link: > The surplus with Mexico turned into a chronic deficit. And the economic dislocation in Mexico increased the the flow of undocumented workers into the United States. So they're saying that jobs moving from the USA to Mexico increased the flow…

The other side of the NAFTA coin was that it allowed US agribusiness to dump products like corn in Mexico at below-market prices, driving many small-scale Mexican farmers into poverty. At that point, they could either work as low-paid maquiladores (the border factories etc.) in Mexico or become Mexican expats at significantly better wages in the US agriculture, construction, restaurant, hotel & golf course etc. secto…

I'm not an expert on Mexico but none of this has happened in NZ with the TPP.

Re: Leaving China

#627

Post by roca »

logicchains wrote: post #520
roca wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their vaccines weren't great but mandating them would have been a lot better than nothing.

It could actually have been a lot worse than nothing. Compare covid deaths in Japan and Korea prior to the mRNA vaccine rollout in 2021 to afterwards; afterwards the infection and death rates sky-rocketed.

That particular anti-vax theory doesn't hold water when you consider that New Zealand vaccinated almost everyone with mRNA (Pfizer) prior to COVID spreading widely, with excellent results. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2023.1085... NZ cumulative excess mortality since January 2020 is still negative: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cumulative-excess-mortali...

Re: Leaving China

#628

Post by mytailorisrich »

re-thc wrote: post #608
mytailorisrich wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

British HK was an act of aggression and a national humiliation for China. The ROC/Taiwan was also happy to see the British go and their regret was that the communists succeeded where they had failed (and in fact did nothing at all as all foreign settlements were kicked out by the PRC).

Why would ROC/Taiwan be happy about it? It helps distract the PRC from ROC/Taiwan. The focus has shifted to Taiwan recently because HK has been "dealt with".

British HK was an humiliation for China. That does not mean for the PRC, that does mean China as a whole and a whole people. Both sides for the straight were glad to see the British go.

It's a lack of cultural and historical understanding not to realise that.

Likewise the focus since 1949 has always been Taiwan. It's HK that has been used as a distraction and 'tool' by the West.

Re: Leaving China

#629

Post by ninjin »

onethought wrote: post #617
ninjin wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their vaccine (sinovac) didn’t work very well… there was no point mandating it. Okay…? How does this address my question about alternative vaccines? Including the fact that the PRC had a local company with an mRNA vaccine license? Was there scientific reasons for this? Lack of industrial ability and know-how? National pride? Again, I do not have answers for these questions. But I keep being told that the government…

> How does this address my question about alternative vaccines? There is not enough of them. Even the local license doesn't mean china can suddenly manufacture 1 billion doses every 12 weeks. > And were any of these actions even remotely like what we saw in the PRC? Which country has remotely the kind of population and living density of china? India? Good example of what happens if you don't do what china did: Everyo…

I have tried to get through to you and clearly failed. You still keep repeating the same points: “no other tool” and “no other option”. I and others have demonstrated to you that far more lenient measures than those used in the PRC were applied across the globe, yet you keep on insisting that any level of forced isolation or even encouragements (without legal repercussions) are equivalent to what we saw Beijing roll out. At this point I will no longer assume that you are arguing in good faith and engage in discussions elsewhere.

Re: Leaving China

#630

Post by RedCondor »

fortuna86 wrote: post #623
RedCondor wrote: post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having a lot of fun, actually. But you can keep pretending you know what you're talking about, citing Wikipedia. I guess from your perspective that's fun too.

> I'm having a lot of fun, actually. I don't doubt that. Trolling is fun for lots of people.

Hegelians don't "troll."
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