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Leaving China

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Re: Leaving China

#611

Post by throwawaymaths »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #455
throwawaymaths wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But consider that economic development helped turn south korea and Taiwan from brutal dictatorships to relatively stable and sustainable democracies. It wasn't crazy to think it would work in China, and it looked like there was buy-in and progress for an (if slow) gradual bringing into the fold process that suddenly t reversed course in 2016-ish

The crucial difference everyone overlooks is that an ideological dictatorship like communism is more sticky than a run-of-the-mill non-ideological dictatorship like those of SK and Taiwan. The core belief of the communist party is will to power - getting and keeping power by any means necessary. There is no balance of power, separation of powers, checks and balances, independent court system, separation of military f…

> an ideological dictatorship like communism is more sticky

So east Germany, Germany and Italy (fascism), the Baltics, Czech, Slovakia, Moldova, Georgia (where Stalin came from), Romania (ciaucescu) etc. Have no hope of ever being democratic?

Re: Leaving China

#612

Post by throwawaymaths »

FpUser wrote: post #433
throwawaymaths wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But consider that economic development helped turn south korea and Taiwan from brutal dictatorships to relatively stable and sustainable democracies. It wasn't crazy to think it would work in China, and it looked like there was buy-in and progress for an (if slow) gradual bringing into the fold process that suddenly t reversed course in 2016-ish

>"It wasn't crazy to think it would work in China" Maybe eventually it will, would just take long time. There are always ups and downs.

Exactly what I think. Nonetheless I will continue to criticize the current regime in the hopes of helping it along

Re: Leaving China

#613

Post by fortuna86 »

RedCondor wrote: post #610
fortuna86 wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't ask who you claim to be, i'm pointing out what you are. If you actually care what China is, which it appears you don't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_capitalism

[flagged]

"Your sources are compromised, here's a quote from Fidel Castro and a random blog titled "China Has Billionaires" that doesn't actually talk about China at all, just "US is bad China opposes US therefore..."

Self-awareness is not your strong point. And your mix of conspiracy and partisan bile being challenged here is evidence this is a healthy online community, not the opposite. Perhaps you would feel better somewhere that confirms your beliefs instead of (rightly) mocks them.

Re: Leaving China

#614

Post by dragonwriter »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #455
throwawaymaths wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But consider that economic development helped turn south korea and Taiwan from brutal dictatorships to relatively stable and sustainable democracies. It wasn't crazy to think it would work in China, and it looked like there was buy-in and progress for an (if slow) gradual bringing into the fold process that suddenly t reversed course in 2016-ish

The crucial difference everyone overlooks is that an ideological dictatorship like communism is more sticky than a run-of-the-mill non-ideological dictatorship like those of SK and Taiwan. The core belief of the communist party is will to power - getting and keeping power by any means necessary. There is no balance of power, separation of powers, checks and balances, independent court system, separation of military f…

> The crucial difference everyone overlooks is that an ideological dictatorship like communism is more sticky than a run-of-the-mill non-ideological dictatorship like those of SK and Taiwan.

There’s very little evidence that Leninism and its derivatives are any stickier than any other authoritarian system, and essentially all authoritarianism (and most non-authoritarian systems of government, too) appeals to some ideology for its justification (often local nationalism), so your attempt to divide the world of dictatorships into ideological and non-ideological dictatorships is flawed from the start.

> All of communist ideology is an elaborate justification and sophisticated plan for getting and keeping absolute and unrestricted power.

It’s…not. In fact, the part of Leninism that serves that purpose (vanguardism) is its key departure from Marxism, and notionally an adaptation of Marxist Communism to bypass the need for capitalist development as a prerequisite to the socialist stage.

Re: Leaving China

#615

Post by gudh »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #144
mytailorisrich wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and it seemed inevitable that China would absorb Taiwan. No, it's unrealistic to think the the ROC would ever effectively surrender to the PRC however HK's reintegration was managed.

Hong Kong was promised to have democracy, human rights and access to China. If they had kept those promises, then I believe many Taiwanese would have welcomed reunification.

Well, I doubt about that.

Reunification? Maybe welcomed by the elders, among the young people, majority prefer to be independent

Re: Leaving China

#616

Post by RedCondor »

fortuna86 wrote: post #613
RedCondor wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

"Your sources are compromised, here's a quote from Fidel Castro and a random blog titled "China Has Billionaires" that doesn't actually talk about China at all, just "US is bad China opposes US therefore..." Self-awareness is not your strong point. And your mix of conspiracy and partisan bile being challenged here is evidence this is a healthy online community, not the opposite. Perhaps you would feel better somewher…

I'm having a lot of fun, actually. But you can keep pretending you know what you're talking about, citing Wikipedia. I guess from your perspective that's fun too.

Re: Leaving China

#617

Post by onethought »

ninjin wrote: post #479
onethought wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their vaccine (sinovac) didn’t work very well… there was no point mandating it. Despite what you may have read Sweden also limited people’s movement and gathering and did localised lockdowns. What other technique do you think is available to stop a contagion spreading? You limit people’s proximity or their susceptibility … that’s it. That’s the whole tool belt, you don’t need to be an expert, just intuitively it’s ea…

> Their vaccine (sinovac) didn’t work very well… there was no point mandating it. Okay…? How does this address my question about alternative vaccines? Including the fact that the PRC had a local company with an mRNA vaccine license? Was there scientific reasons for this? Lack of industrial ability and know-how? National pride? Again, I do not have answers for these questions. But I keep being told that the government…

> How does this address my question about alternative vaccines?

There is not enough of them. Even the local license doesn't mean china can suddenly manufacture 1 billion doses every 12 weeks.

> And were any of these actions even remotely like what we saw in the PRC?

Which country has remotely the kind of population and living density of china? India? Good example of what happens if you don't do what china did: Everyone gets sick, and hospitals fall over.

> No, I do not believe that the set of tools.

It was a question. What other tools do you think there were/are? Where did a country reduce burden on hospitals without either limiting human movement (lockdowns) or vaccinating the population (vaccines)?

Re: Leaving China

#618

Post by onethought »

Laaas wrote: post #513
onethought wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh you're upset about the testing fish. Agree, that's crazy, we should all be up in arms about the unnecessary fish testing! Melbourne, 100% did lock people in their apartments, they didn't used welders, just Police, Guns, and force. They also required mass PCR tests, and had Quarantine Camps (though they used hotels).

Maybe Australia wasn't a good example of what to do under a pandemic.

Right, who was a good example? Before you fall for the trap, know that if you pick someone that used lockdowns... you're strengthening my point.

Re: Leaving China

#619

Post by onethought »

opinionsonly01 wrote: post #552
onethought wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are now entering a pretty minor argument of semantics. Extended lockdowns vs non-extended? Melbourne did lockdowns for effectively 4 months, longer than any single Chinese lockdown. So even on that point you are incorrect. This isn’t misinformation. It didn’t refuse vaccines, you can get them in HK, and Chinese are free to travel to HK (for a variety of reasons). There is not enough of them, that’s the problem.

> Melbourne did lockdowns for effectively 4 months You claimed Singapore and Taiwan has 'extended' lockdowns. I called you out. Now you're back peddling and trying to justify your statement with "but but but melbourne, you didn't mention melbourne and they had long lockdown!!!" > It didn’t refuse vaccines, you can get them in HK, and Chinese are free to travel to HK. It does refuse, and clearly you're not from China…

No, my original point included Melbourne as well. Singapore and Taiwan both did lockdowns as well. Not as long as China true, so your point really is the semantics of length?

No, I'm not from China, but that has little to do with any point I've made. Vaccines were never an option for Chinese, they had a locally made one that didn't work well enough, and they could have never secured the number required of mRNA. If it refused them, then how did HK get them?

Which statement that I've made is false?

Re: Leaving China

#620

Post by physicles »

galangalalgol wrote: post #540
TomK32 wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culturally it has a lot of offer, vibrant scenes for any art or music taste and museums stuffed artifacts stolen from all around the globe[0] that might almost rival the British Museum. Also many musicians and artists have called it their temporary home, from Josephine Baker to David Bowie and his flat mate Iggy Pop[1]. Call it a litmus-test for how open a society is, even if you prefer complaining about the noise an…

I think I would love Berlin. It is just very different than all the other options presented, so I was curious why it was listed. It is like someone saying they are trying to decide between several types of dark roasted coffee but also having ginger kombucha in the list. Put more succinctly, I did see a common trait between Berlin and the other locations, so I wondered what it was.

TomK32's provided some great insight as a German. For me, the common traits are 1) local language is not explicitly English, 2) has a vibrant social scene, and 3) I know people there already. I'm a techie so cost of living isn't an overriding concern.
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