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Leaving China

persuasion.community

501–510 of 686 posts

Re: Leaving China

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google Professor Philip Stark and read some of the papers he publishes about the dangers of electronic voting machines.

If you audit every election after they are done, what is the danger of using electric voting machines ?

This might sound snide, but I assure you I am asking in good faith to prove a point. What does it mean to audit the election, without skipping the complexity?

A few questions I would expect to be answered:

  How do we know all votes cast were legitimate?
  How do we know that the voting machines recorded votes correctly?
  How do we know the auditors are good faith actors?
  How do we know ballots weren't lost/delayed (mail in)?
  How do we know legitimate looking votes were cast by the right person?
My overall assertion is not that we can't know. It's that voting is so complex that this can't be easily explained in a satisfying way to (or by) a layman. It's so complex that "trust" is a core part of the election process.

Should I have to take a quarter long class in election mechanics to be satisfied that our voting system is legitimate? That's a bit of hyperbole, but I truly don't know how our elections work and I don't think I could understand them in an afternoon and it doesn't have to be that way.

Taiwan's elections are simple and self-evident. American elections are extremely complex and require trust in institutions.

Taiwan's elections optimize for trust. America's elections optimize for cost. Trust is priceless.

I really would like an explanation of what audit means. I am open to the idea of being surprised by a satisfying answer, but I am also asking because I don't think the answer will be satisfying.

Re: Leaving China

#502
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China had a pre-mature political system established 2k years ago.

That's shows how technical debt can't be easy get rid of even if you do a rewrite

Never did any regression testing.

Re: Leaving China

#503
post #13

It's so interesting to read this perspective since it drives home "the grass is always greener.." for me. I've lived a pretty charmed life in the US for the past few years (like the majority of HN, I imagine) but I find myself longing to move to a country with dense cities, affordable housing in the city center, great public infrastructure and a modicum of agreement among the citizens and China fits the bill pretty g…

It's not a great society for Uyghurs, or Christians, or Falun Gong, or anyone who want to speak their mind. It's not just accepting limitations on your personal freedom, it's being comfortable with the oppression of everyone around you.

Re: Leaving China

#504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement does not falsify the quoted statement; both can be true that the ROC would not surrender and that China might inevitably absorb Taiwan. If we want to get really pedantic, no timeline was also stated, so this could also be 50 to 500 years from now.

I would be very surprised if humans are still the main form of intelligence 500 years from now, let alone any countries still existing.

Resident aliens would still be around.

Re: Leaving China

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hits home for me a lot. I've lived in Spain, Argentina and Finland, all in hoping to fill whatever gap I thought it would, whether that would be life quality, weather, culture or whatever. But after the honeymoon period, the cracks started to show at every place. I'm now back in my home country, Estonia, which I (now) think is the best for me - but that creeping feeling of something better being somewhere out th…

Interesting. Estonia was my top pick in the EU. In retrospect, were you searching or escaping?

Probably both. Escaping the routine, boring familiarity and searching for that one place where I'd be perfectly content with existence, but that in itself I have come to find is probably not possible to achieve because of the very nature of being human. Being self-aware is such a curse sometimes.

Re: Leaving China

#506

This article got me wondering: what is the difference between an immigrant and an expat? It seems like immigrant is the term used for someone migrating westward, and expat is the term used for someone migrating from a Western country eastward. For the sake of this definition we're considering North America the western limit of the world and Asia the Eastern limit. Opinions?

Westerns needed a new word to disassociate them from migrants.

Re: Leaving China

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched a Taiwanese election in Taiwan. I observed their polling stations. A Taiwanese citizen started a conversation and educated me, an American, on democracy and elections. This Taiwanese person told me that elections are for the loser. If the loser does not believe in the validity of the election, it serves no purpose. That's why electronic voting machines are anti-thetical to the purpose of an election. Electr…

> If the loser does not believe in the validity of the election, it serves no purpose. The idea seems correct, however, unsure how electronic voting machine comes into the picture, perhaps only in a mental sense, but people have shown that they will not believe in the validity of the election regardless of the evidence presented.

Democracy is about submission of the minority. To believe in democracy means to believe that when you are in the minority, you must submit to things you disagree with. There is grey area around human rights and bad faith legislation/corruption.

If I don't trust the election, that means I don't believe I'm actually in the minority, and if I don't believe I am in the minority, then I am being subjugated and oppressed by people who are using power to get their way rather than a mandate from the people to execute the people's will.

I am extremely liberal and Trump is the avatar of everything that I hate, but I don't believe the election is legitimate either. A sitting president called an election official to sway the election, and 2 years later it's not clear there are going to be any consequences. The mechanics of mail in ballots was messed with during an election cycle, and the person who did that is still in control of the postal system. If there are no timely consequences for attempting to cheat, how can you trust the integrity of the system? I don't. There are clearly no checks and balances for actual and obvious attempts to manipulate elections.

I think you can talk to just about anyone who works in security and they will tell you there is no reason to trust voting machines. On slashdot, the technical community nearly universally said "this is a bad idea" when Diebold voting machines were first adopted. That sentiment has been strong through technical communities for a long time. Even today, I think if you asked HN "from a technical point of view are voting machines a good idea?" there would be a resounding, absolutely not.

Because we won, it's less of an issue for us, but had we lost, we would question the results too. We would look around us and experience that no one else liked trump and ask "how can these results be legitimate" too, the same way they look at the people around them and go "everyone liked trump, how can these results be legitimate?" He called a Georgian election official, are we sure that didn't work? Did he call other state's officials and we didn't hear about it because it did work? How do we know? How do we know Biden didn't do that?

Denial is the first stage of grief.

> people have shown that they will not believe in the validity of the election regardless of the evidence presented.

You are failing to have empathy for these people. Evidence cannot be presented, because the mechanics of elections are not able to produce evidence. I am a well educated US citizen, but I think our elections amount to "trust us." Of course people don't believe evidence presented, because the evidence amounts to "trust us." "Trust this extremely complex system that only a handful of people might know how it functions in depth."

You say "regardless of evidence presented," but what if the system is not actually capable of producing satisfying evidence? What if the evidence is actually not satisfying? What if there were systems that could be satisfying, bit this one isn't able to be?

In Taiwan I could go watch an election and I found the legitimacy of it to be self evident because I found the mechanics of it simple and hard to argue with. I don't think there is anything self-evident about our elections. In America, who runs the voting machines is an important question. In Taiwan, who facilitates the voting stations doesn't make much difference. "Are the voting stations being watched" is an important question in Taiwan. "Are the voting stations being watched" doesn't really make sense here since we have mail in ballots and other methods.

Taiwanese don't have to say "trust us" they can say "go watch the election happen."

A hard pill to swallow for most of liberal America is that conservatives can be right for very wrong reasons. It's easy to say "you don't think the results are legitimate because you lost," it's much harder to say "can somebody in good faith not trust the election results?" "what might we have done to decrease trust in elections?" "Can we make our election system more resistant to claims of bad faith?"

Re: Leaving China

#508
post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect China's draconian, desperate attempt to eliminate Covid entirely was largely due to official guilt. OR it was because they didn't have a vaccinated population and they couldn't build and staff hospitals fast enough to deal with a nation wide exponentially growing infection. Don't let facts get in the way of a good rant though.

They could have vaccinated their population while they were maintaining zero-COVID. It's a mystery to me why they didn't make vaccination mandatory.

Sinovac, Sinopharm, etc that China made weren't working up to the required standards. It wasn't something anyone wanted to come out and admit.

To make vaccination mandatory they'd have to admit, kill off their own producers and import. It'd be a political disaster.

Re: Leaving China

#509
post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t see a significant difference between “is mostly” and “a small majority have some trace of”? This is like saying “most English people can speak French” vs “a majority of English people learn some French at school”

England has a long and proud history of being invaded, colonised and overbred by the French. Anglo-Saxon isn't exactly an English pedigree. It isn't French either, but "French" doesn't have an etymology that originated in France. So it is quite possible that the argument of Thai people being Chinese would parallel more strongly; English people don't just speak a bit of French, they have the same ancestors and may as…

> has a long and proud history of being invaded, colonised and overbred by the French

That’s not really true though unless you take an excessively liberal interpretation of what it means to be French. The Celts weren’t French, the Danes weren’t French, the Romans weren’t French, the Saxons weren’t French, and even the Normans had only been in France for a century before invading, although they picked up the local language pdq. The only people to successfully invade after 1066 were the Dutch, and they would assure you they weren’t French.

Re: Leaving China

#510
post #508
post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could have vaccinated their population while they were maintaining zero-COVID. It's a mystery to me why they didn't make vaccination mandatory.

Sinovac, Sinopharm, etc that China made weren't working up to the required standards. It wasn't something anyone wanted to come out and admit. To make vaccination mandatory they'd have to admit, kill off their own producers and import. It'd be a political disaster.

Their vaccines weren't great but mandating them would have been a lot better than nothing.
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