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Leaving China

persuasion.community

211–220 of 686 posts

Re: Leaving China

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, no. The only legal definition of expat in US law is someone who gives up their citizenship or green card.

Technically yes. The legal term for someone on temporary work authorization without an intent to immigrate would be something like "non-immigrant alien resident". The common term would be... expat.

The common term, yes. But the legal definition of expat is:

2) Expatriate The term “expatriate” means— (A) any United States citizen who relinquishes his citizenship, and (B) any long-term resident of the United States who ceases to be a lawful permanent resident of the United States (within the meaning of section 7701(b)(6) ).

Re: Leaving China

#212

The Chinese invasion of Taiwan is inevitable. When it happens, every Western company will suddenly have to pull out, just like they did Russia. The losses for Western companies will be tremendous. For some, it will be a mortal blow. I can hear some of you saying "...but, but, China would never... because that would be so stupid...". It doesn't have to be a good idea! Russia's invasion of Ukraine a) wasn't a good idea…

I'd have to call you on a, b, and d - Russia saw it as integral to their existence as a nation, and it had to happen pretty much exactly when it happened or they would lose their (very very small) chance ever again. As it stands Russia probably won't exist in 50 years thanks to the damage that Putin accelerated. Look into the geopolitics of it.

I recommend watching reports from RealLifeLore, Whatifalthist, CaspianReport and Peter Zeihan.

Re: Leaving China

#213
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China does not have a citizenship program. If you are not born Chinese, you will never be Chinese. Everyone who moves to China is an expat. What you call yourself, "immigrant" or "expat" is up to you. For example, plenty of Indians call themselves expats in the US. Other Indians call themselves immigrants. Personally, I'm a fan of the word "alien". God Bless America! :D

Millions of people live in the USA right now with no path to citizenship yet have never been called expats.

> no path to citizenship

Joining the military can lead to citizenship if they're young enough. Marrying a citizen can also lead to citizenship. Even without becoming a citizen, their children, if they're born here, will become citizens.

Re: Leaving China

#214
I suspect China's draconian, desperate attempt to eliminate Covid entirely was largely due to official guilt. They knew that their poorly managed reckless science program at the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the source of the outbreak, and they wanted to somehow prove they could wipe the virus out entirely (which they couldn't). Eventually they had to give up.

I wonder what happens to people in China who point this out? Probably not good for the social credit score... Of course, WIV got a lot of funding for their CRISPR-gene-editing-of-bat-betacoronavirus program from the USA's NIH via the EcoHealth Alliance outfit, so the blame doesn't rest solely with them. Not that discussing that issue publicly in the USA was good for one's social credit score on Facebook, Twitter, Reddit etc. either, although I imagine the outcome in China was significantly worse for such speech.

One does get the sense that certain US authorities and institutions are somewhat envious of China's ability to censor its own people, though.

Re: Leaving China

#215
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Chinese diaspora I had no idea how wide it is until a family member married someone from Asia and he explained ot me that his family thinks of themselves as ethnically Chinese, although they're totally disconnected from China.

Wait why is that a problem? Nationality and ethnicity are two different things.

It’s a problem in that not a common way to perceive one’s identity and more difficult for others to relate to the situation.

Consider the way Russians-in-exile perceive themselves in the current geopolitical context.

Re: Leaving China

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An immigrant hopes to settle down in the host country, have / grow a family there, own property and even become a citizen. Of course, if the host nation does not have a citizenship program for foreigners, then everyone who isn't a citizen is an expat. An expat hopes, even plans to move back to where they came from. They're in their host nation for work reasons only because, at least according to the expat, where they…

Would you call South Asian laborers who are temporarily working in construction in Dubai expats? Seems to fit your definition exactly.

Yes, they're most definitely expats. Their engineer colleagues from South Asia call themselves expats.

Re: Leaving China

#217
post #60

What I find ironic is that as businesses leave China, they move into the exact same type of culture in Vietnam and India. Vietnam is basically a mini China and India is trending towards the same authoritarian regime that most people find distasteful. The entire western world is so addicted to cheap labor I don't know what would happen when there is no more cheap labor to be found. There will be a huge social disrupti…

I don’t believe the average western person would care at all if they could afford fewer cheap products. Corporate profits would certainly go down.

I am mocked for seeking non-china made goods, and paying extra for it. Predictably from my (boomer) parents who see no problem with funding china and getting low quality goods that break... its so cheap they have no problem simply buying another one. If we were importing cheap gold jewellery from nazi germany they'd be all about it.

Re: Leaving China

#218

Can other expats who has since left, or have decided to stay, share their experience as well?

I lived in China for several years and left during COVID. There are lots of things I miss about living there.

The food was great. You could find fresh cooked stuff everywhere and fresh vegetables at the market every day. Getting delivery was cheap, easy and fast.

As a well-paid tech worker, housing was affordable.

There is a sense you are taking part in something important. That's difficult to explain, and it's something Americans in particular probably can't understand because their country is the same but even more so. When you come from a smaller or less powerful country, there is something exciting about becoming part of a society which has great influence internationally. When stuff that's happening locally ends up being major news because your country actually matters to the rest of the world, that's a neat feeling.

The public transport and urban infrastructure was really good, even in low tier cities, although when the COVID restrictions hit all of that changed.

And that's what made me realize that despite the benefits of centralized rule, it also can turn the country into a prison state overnight.

Anyone living in China is familiar with seeing police and other uniformed and armed officials all over the place. Cameras all over the place. Party propaganda all over the place. But it doesn't seem all that sinister when it doesn't get in the way of your own personal life. When you can go to work, and go to the market, and go to the restaurant, and it's just a backdrop. It's only when those agents of oppression mobilize that it really sinks in how messed up it is. When uniformed officials in their tens storm in with clipboards and mancatchers to shut down your favorite restaurant or street vendor because someone important has decided it should no longer be open. When something the party doesn't like is said on a website you read every morning and suddenly that website is no longer available, period. When walls get erected around every neighborhood in the city and all those markets you used to visit in different districts are now behind checkpoints you cannot cross because you don't have the paperwork to visit them.

Things improved after those first few months of COVID, but for me that was the real eye-opener. A lot of local people realized it too, and there was talk of how "now we are all Uyghurs". Of course, as the holder of a foreign passport, I had the privilege to be able to leave when I was fed up with the oppression. Most Chinese do not have that privilege.

There are lots of other bad things about living in China. The blatant corruption, for one. The endless boondoggles and scams and the greedy scumbags who buy into the system and prop it up to enrich themselves.

The classism is shameful for a so-called "communist" country. The way the urban middle class looks down on anyone who comes from the countryside or works low class jobs or didn't get a good education is depressing.

Foreigners are second class citizens and always will be. Threads here ask about why people are called "expats" instead of "immigrants", and the answers are missing the point a bit. In China, as a migrant worker, you have no choice to become an immigrant. You must maintain your job or your visa will be canceled. There is no chance of getting citizenship. There is not even a hope of getting permanent residence. There is a strong undercurrent of racism that the government allows to exist, in so far as it doesn't actively stamp it out like it does other topics they prefer the people do not discuss. At every step of your life there, you will be reminded you are an outsider. When you can't sign up for the same services local people can because you don't have the same ID card, when you are told you can't stay at a hotel because management doesn't want to go to the trouble of registering you with the police daily, when yet another landlord refuses to rent to you despite you having all the money and the paperwork. However, having lived as a foreigner in other countries, I can say that these things aren't unique to China, they are often part of the migrant experience, and a lot of countries should do better.

Of course, in China the bad things are compounded by the authoritarianism, and in the end, that just outweighed everything for me.

Re: Leaving China

#219

What I find ironic is that as businesses leave China, they move into the exact same type of culture in Vietnam and India. Vietnam is basically a mini China and India is trending towards the same authoritarian regime that most people find distasteful. The entire western world is so addicted to cheap labor I don't know what would happen when there is no more cheap labor to be found. There will be a huge social disrupti…

> Fun fact, Vietnam is moving from 5 days work week to 6 days work week

This is literally because they need to increase manufacturing output and efficacy if they're to have a hope of competing with China's economies of scale. (It's probably not going to work out, on the whole, and a large amount of Vietnamese "manufacturing" is tightening the screws on products that were 90% assembled in China.)

> while the rest of us are demanding 4 days work week here in the US.

This is because a huge chunk of American jobs are bullshit make-work. If the US had a better legal/regulatory system, you could move to a three-day work week and nobody would notice a thing.

Re: Leaving China

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there are very jaded views about cultural superiority and other things like that. I think the truth is probably less cynical. I can move to japan and marry a Japanese wife, work for a Japanese company, pay Japanese taxes, and speak fluent Japanese, but I will never be Japanese because my skin is white. People can move to America, and as long as you speak English without an accent, there is an assumption that yo…

How accepted you are has nothing to do with you being an immigrant or not. You immigrated. It's the act of living permanently in a foreign country.

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