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Leaving China

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Re: Leaving China

#111

Post by tiny_ta »

jzb wrote: post #75
tiny_ta wrote: post #13

It's so interesting to read this perspective since it drives home "the grass is always greener.." for me. I've lived a pretty charmed life in the US for the past few years (like the majority of HN, I imagine) but I find myself longing to move to a country with dense cities, affordable housing in the city center, great public infrastructure and a modicum of agreement among the citizens and China fits the bill pretty g…

Serious question, if you have to sacrifice personal freedom, what does the great society look like you are willing to sacrifice it for? What freedoms are you willing to give up for what societal benefit? I’m genuinely curious because every person defines personal freedom differently. And great society is very subjective.

I appreciate your question because I have spent a lot of time in the past thinking about this :)

> I’m genuinely curious because every person defines personal freedom differently. And great society is very subjective.

I couldn't agree more! I believe that all of us have to give up some personal freedom if we want to live in a functional society. I may want to blast music from my rooftop at 3AM but I must curb that urge out of respect for the society I live in. How much of this personal freedom we are willing to give up is different for different people. On this spectrum, I think I lie towards giving up more if it gives me a comfortable society in return.

I am willing to mask up if it means that fewer people in my vicinity may "possibly" get sick less. I am okay with video cameras and facial recognition in public places if it means less crime in my neighborhood. I am willing to pay more taxes if it means public infrastructure can be improved and schools can get better teachers. I might be wrong though, because these things can clearly be taken to an extreme.

Re: Leaving China

#112

Post by duxup »

tiny_ta wrote: post #13

It's so interesting to read this perspective since it drives home "the grass is always greener.." for me. I've lived a pretty charmed life in the US for the past few years (like the majority of HN, I imagine) but I find myself longing to move to a country with dense cities, affordable housing in the city center, great public infrastructure and a modicum of agreement among the citizens and China fits the bill pretty g…

There's a wonderful skit from Portlandia about a couple who visit Spain and come back and everything is now a reflection of what they saw there. They can't help but talk about it... constantly.

I think it's hard to really "know" a place, and frankly your experience anywhere will vary.

Granted sometimes people just need a change.

Re: Leaving China

#113

Post by cutemonster »

908B64B197 wrote: post #20
ersiees wrote: post #3

Why do we call people expats and not rich migrants or something like that?

There's a legal distinction. At least in America. An immigrant has an intent to settle, an expat doesn't. In America, one could theoretically lose work authorization should he refer or present himself as an immigrant.

That's what I've read, too, i.e. intent to settle, or not.

Maybe wanting to move forever (i.e. migrant) is more common, if one is from a poorer country, which could explain why some others here thought that "immigrant" implied "poor and less educated".

Re: Leaving China

#114

Post by claytongulick »

thefounder wrote: post #90
Waterluvian wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pay that price for a great society in return You’re not just paying in your own freedoms. You’re paying in the freedoms of others, like the Muslims that the Chinese government have decided aren’t compatible with the “great society” that you seek.

There are worse places for muslims than China as far as human rights are concerned. I feel the whole muslim issue in China is just a pretext. Have we forgot about Saudi Arabia or whatever mess is left in Afghanistan?

I'm trying to understand the point you're making.

Are you making the argument that because there are things that are possibly worse, we should ignore the bad?

Re: Leaving China

#115

Post by precompute »

askonomm wrote: post #17
tiny_ta wrote: post #13

It's so interesting to read this perspective since it drives home "the grass is always greener.." for me. I've lived a pretty charmed life in the US for the past few years (like the majority of HN, I imagine) but I find myself longing to move to a country with dense cities, affordable housing in the city center, great public infrastructure and a modicum of agreement among the citizens and China fits the bill pretty g…

This hits home for me a lot. I've lived in Spain, Argentina and Finland, all in hoping to fill whatever gap I thought it would, whether that would be life quality, weather, culture or whatever. But after the honeymoon period, the cracks started to show at every place. I'm now back in my home country, Estonia, which I (now) think is the best for me - but that creeping feeling of something better being somewhere out th…

That's very interesting, what made you leave those countries? Argentina likely has money issues, but the other two come very "highly recommended" (high quality of life, law & order, etc), especially Finland.

Re: Leaving China

#116

Post by hayst4ck »

coldtea wrote: post #92
jasonjei wrote: post #63

I used to travel to China all the time for work during my first job in 2008. Those times were super optimistic. Hong Kong was filled with Chinese pride, and it seemed inevitable that China would absorb Taiwan. China had just hosted the Olympics. I visited Hong Kong late 2018 after many years of not having been there. It was a very different place from the Hong Kong I had visited in 2009-2011. The energy was a bit dar…

> Meanwhile, Taiwan’s value to the Chinese diaspora can’t be understated—it’s a bastion of a mandarin-speaking democracy. A bastion of democracy which has been a right wing dictatorship from its inception until the 90s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan)

I watched a Taiwanese election in Taiwan. I observed their polling stations. A Taiwanese citizen started a conversation and educated me, an American, on democracy and elections.

This Taiwanese person told me that elections are for the loser. If the loser does not believe in the validity of the election, it serves no purpose.

That's why electronic voting machines are anti-thetical to the purpose of an election. Electronic voting machines exchange trust for a more efficient election. That is why Taiwan does not use electronic voting machines.

That is a pretty impressive insight that was absent from my American civic education. I was very impressed with the civic education in Taiwan, and I was impressed with the average level of education in Taipei.

My subjective experience as an American was that Democracy is more healthy in Taiwan than it is in America.

Re: Leaving China

#117

Post by scrubs »

kurthr wrote: post #22
tiny_ta wrote: post #13

It's so interesting to read this perspective since it drives home "the grass is always greener.." for me. I've lived a pretty charmed life in the US for the past few years (like the majority of HN, I imagine) but I find myself longing to move to a country with dense cities, affordable housing in the city center, great public infrastructure and a modicum of agreement among the citizens and China fits the bill pretty g…

I'd encourage you to study Mandarin for a year or so and look into what the non-influencer set is saying about China. My first trip to China was in 1999 and my last in 2019. That was a time of amazing freedom and growth. Beijing went from bicycles to cars to subways and everything was growing. It's not like that now, youth unemployment is very high, foreigners are not welcome, and you really can't imagine the politic…

I'd encourage everyone to read:

https://globalbrief.ca/2020/06/zeal-and-chinas-wolf-warrior-...

This goes way further than most to explain "Chinese characteristics" (my term usage not link's).

China is very complex and belies any simple summary. I definitely think it's a vastly smarter state than Russia... who by comparison it must now regard as a baby sitting project.

Re: Leaving China

#118

Post by thefounder »

Waterluvian wrote: post #106
thefounder wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are worse places for muslims than China as far as human rights are concerned. I feel the whole muslim issue in China is just a pretext. Have we forgot about Saudi Arabia or whatever mess is left in Afghanistan?

Last week my six year old tried to justify his bad behaviour because his little brother did something worse. I didn’t buy it, and I don’t here either.

Well, if you would keep signaling your six year old and ignore the "deeds" of his little brother I would say you are biased and have something against your six years old. Also what made you punish the bad behaviour all of a sudden?

It's not like China was a beacon of human rights until "now". I don't think SA is really a little brother either. They still behead people in public squares. The whole "human rights" issue in China is really just a pretext and use of U.S soft power to isolate China. But "everyone" know that at stake is really the economic and millitary rivality. The U.S couldn't really care less about the muslims in China. Just look how much it cares about women in Afghanistan. Let's stop pretending we are little children. China is starting to influence our way of life and we should push against that but I just hate the B.S pretexts. It feels like propaganda and we hate propaganda, don't we?

Re: Leaving China

#119

Post by nonethewiser »

majormajor wrote: post #107
livueta wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1, at least anecdotally, at least in T1 cities: I spent a few months in Shanghai for work in 2018 and all of my local colleagues had messed up housing situations of one flavor or another. One guy lived alone in a shoebox but when he had a free weekend, he'd take the train ~2h out to a smaller city where his family lived in a decent house. There were also a lot of complaints about apartment quality even/especially in…

With the folks I was working with it wasn't "messed up" in any way, it just was hardly any more relatively affordable give local wages than most big cities in the US. Some fun/awkward differences though. For instance, I had imagined it would be easy to find a laundromat - I didn't want to pay the hotel prices for cleaning. Ended up almost accidentally offending the people I was asking - "why would we need to go somew…

I used to think that way about WeChat but I don’t anymore. The reason stores use credit payment networks in the West is because it’s better. We have cash transferring apps but we don’t use them for a reason. Meanwhile, China does not have the same type of payment networks.

Re: Leaving China

#120

Post by paganel »

nonethewiser wrote: post #52
hayst4ck wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not an expat, but I was considering spending several months in China. After Hong Kong, there was a strong message of "Americans caused this," likewise after covid there was a strong message of "this didn't start in China, this actually started in America." It wasn't just a message of "America is our enemy," but looking at how the People in Hong Kong were robbed of due process from an impartial justice system it…

> "this didn't start in China, this actually started in America." How did the reasoning work here? Not sure if this speaks to poor education, propaganda, something else, or all of the above.

Based on organisations like the infamous NED [1].

[1] https://www.ned.org/region/asia/hong-kong-china-2021/

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